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Subject: The Strange Sensation of Having My Vote Suppressed rss

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I'm a straight white middle-class dude so I recognize that the bias inherent in the US system mostly misses me when it hits other people. Trump's tax cuts even benefit me in the short term.

But today, Arizona Republicans are suing to suppress my vote.

I, along with hundreds of thousands of other voters, am a "late early" as described in the article. If the Republicans are successful and if my signature on the ballot is "questionable" my vote won't be counted. It's a good thing the GOP waited till we were in the middle of a vote count to try and fix our election system. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that "late earlies" favor Democrats.

It's upsetting to witness GOP voter suppression tactics leveled at other people. I oppose it and try to empathize with such situations even though they have never affected me personally. Now it is personal. It's a whole different sensation when the tactics are leveled at you.
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rayito2702 wrote:
I'm a straight white middle-class dude so I recognize that the bias inherent in the US system mostly misses me when it hits other people. Trump's tax cuts even benefit me in the short term.

But today, Arizona Republicans are suing to suppress my vote.

I, along with hundreds of thousands of other voters, am a "late early" as described in the article. If the Republicans are successful and if my signature on the ballot is "questionable" my vote won't be counted. It's a good thing the GOP waited till we were in the middle of a vote count to try and fix our election system. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that "late earlies" favor Democrats.

It's upsetting to witness GOP voter suppression tactics leveled at other people. I oppose it and try to empathize with such situations even though they have never affected me personally. Now it is personal. It's a whole different sensation when the tactics are leveled at you.


It is hard to empathize with others sometimes. You try.. but it's not the same. You don't get it in your gut the same way.
 
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If only they could get back to stuffing boxes, they wouldn't have to keep so many people down.
 
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rayito2702 wrote:
It's a good thing the GOP waited till we were in the middle of a vote count to try and fix our election system. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that "late earlies" favor Democrats.


As opposed to merely 1 week prior to the election? I'm sure since this guy was a Democrat that his only motivation for making such a last minute change, 1 week prior to the election, was to humbly seek out justice and fairness for everyone. I'm sure it had nothing to do with giving his county a nudge in the right direction (or should I say left?).

Quote:
Fontes, a Democrat, who just a week ago decided to allow voters to verify signatures after Election Day, . . .


A pox. Both houses.
 
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According to the link though the republican are saying they aren't suing to get democratic leaning counties to stop phone verifying signatures after the election, but rather to have all the counties in the state do the same thing.

The wording in the lawsuit is they want all counties to do it in a "uniform way", but doesn't request one option over the other so the actual original intent is impossible to verify.

If their claims of the direction they are taking the lawsuit end up being true it's actually them fighting voter suppression while those opposing the lawsuit are trying to suppress votes in conservative counties.
 
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A couple of random thoughts:

1) The stories out there are pretty horrid at actually specifying what's affected here. It's only those ballots where the signature on the envelope doesn't match the signature on file. The estimate given to the judge that made a ruling today was that might be about 5,600 votes.

2) All of the other ballots absolutely will be counted. This has no impact on the count overall.

3) This has apparently been common practice in the state for a while, so one has to question why the lawsuit would be filed now rather than in 2016 or 2014.

4) I've seen some comments that the law isn't particularly clear. The ballot must be received by a given time on election day, but there's nothing about when it's verified in the law. And since these ballots can be dropped off right up until the polls close, requiring that they be verified on election seems pretty insane.

5) The GOP's track record in Arizona is pretty shitty on voting issues. They passed a law that banned groups collecting votes to deliver en masse. So the Democratic party or the management of an apartment complex or the staff at a nursing home cannot collect 10 ballots from people to deliver because this would apparently encourage fraud (?????). And that's just the most recent thing.
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cormor321 wrote:
If their claims of the direction they are taking the lawsuit end up being true...


I'll bet you 50gg that they aren't. Know how I know?

Quote:
...it's actually them fighting voter suppression while those opposing the lawsuit are trying to suppress votes in conservative counties.


Their lawsuit didn't ask the judge to force counties who didn't continue verifying signatures/ballots to do so for all of the ballots that they had. It asked the judge to force counties that were doing this to stop.

Just in case it isn't clear - when a Republican is talking about "fair elections," they are just about always lying and actually talking about their latest voter suppression method as though it was the best thing ever. I'd say that's at least 90% of the time, probably approaching 95%. For some (Chris Kobach, anyone?) it's 100%.

Republicans don't benefit from actually counting every vote and they know it. That's why their strategy has been so blatantly designed to limit access to voting.
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perfalbion wrote:
cormor321 wrote:
If their claims of the direction they are taking the lawsuit end up being true...


I'll bet you 50gg that they aren't. Know how I know?

Quote:
...it's actually them fighting voter suppression while those opposing the lawsuit are trying to suppress votes in conservative counties.


Their lawsuit didn't ask the judge to force counties who didn't continue verifying signatures/ballots to do so for all of the ballots that they had. It asked the judge to force counties that were doing this to stop.

Just in case it isn't clear - when a Republican is talking about "fair elections," they are just about always lying and actually talking about their latest voter suppression method as though it was the best thing ever. I'd say that's at least 90% of the time, probably approaching 95%. For some (Chris Kobach, anyone?) it's 100%.

Republicans don't benefit from actually counting every vote and they know it. That's why their strategy has been so blatantly designed to limit access to voting.


Of course any effort they make toward "fairer" elections is actually trying to gain advantage. That's a given. In this case getting every county to keep verifying rather than just two heavily democratic counties is to their advantage.

As I mention above the wording in the lawsuit is they want all counties to do it in a "uniform way". The request to halt verification was to halt it until the judge made a ruling.

I'd counter you're bet with saying you aren't going to see the Democrats clamoring to get the other counties in the state to keep verifying signatures ending the suppression in those counties.
 
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cormor321 wrote:
Of course any effort they make toward "fairer" elections is actually trying to gain advantage. That's a given. In this case getting every county to keep verifying rather than just two heavily democratic counties is to their advantage.


No. No it's not to their advantage. They don't want the Pima and Maricopa county ballots counted because those two counties are around 85% of the total population in the state. The relative advantage of having smaller counties doing the same would be minuscule.

Quote:
I'd counter you're bet with saying you aren't going to see the Democrats clamoring to get the other counties in the state to keep verifying signatures ending the suppression in those counties.


I'll bet you a further 50gg that the Democrats express absolutely no objections with the other counties continuing to verify ballots. In case you hadn't noticed, they're the party that actually tries to expand access to voting.
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Note that this is the same GOP that is trying to get 3,000 ballots thrown out that were cast as a part of "emergency voting" on Saturday and Monday. State law requires that citizens are provided with a way to do this, mind you. So these are actual votes cast before election day, but we shouldn't count them.

Even more fun, if you read through the entirety of that article, you'll see that all 15 county recorders endorsed a plan to extend early voting all the way through the Monday before election day. It passed unanimously in the AZ house. The GOP refused to bring the motion to the floor in the AZ senate. ETA - I noticed I have the houses wrong. It passed the Senate unanimously and was never brought to the House floor.
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ejmowrer wrote:
rayito2702 wrote:
It's a good thing the GOP waited till we were in the middle of a vote count to try and fix our election system. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that "late earlies" favor Democrats.


As opposed to merely 1 week prior to the election? I'm sure since this guy was a Democrat that his only motivation for making such a last minute change, 1 week prior to the election, was to humbly seek out justice and fairness for everyone. I'm sure it had nothing to do with giving his county a nudge in the right direction (or should I say left?).

Quote:
Fontes, a Democrat, who just a week ago decided to allow voters to verify signatures after Election Day, . . .


A pox. Both houses.

The policy that the GOP is protesting has been around for decades. Voters have been told throughout the run-up to the election that you can deliver your mail-in ballot to the polling station on election day.

Changing the voting process a week before an election is inappropriate and the voting official was right to ignore the request.

To call out the recorder's party is irrelevant. Republicans have controlled the state government for years. If they thought it was an issue they could have changed the law at any time.
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cormor321 wrote:
The wording in the lawsuit is they want all counties to do it in a "uniform way", but doesn't request one option over the other so the actual original intent is impossible to verify.

If their claims of the direction they are taking the lawsuit end up being true it's actually them fighting voter suppression while those opposing the lawsuit are trying to suppress votes in conservative counties.

The GOP is attempting to suppress mail-in ballots turned in at polling stations. There are hundreds of thousands of them and they tend to favor Democrats. Note how the Democratic candidate, who had been behind in the vote count, has passed the Republican since they started counting the election day mail-ins.

Suppressing these ballots most definitely benefits the Republicans.

As Ken pointed out, it appears that only 5,600 votes are threatened if the GOP is able to suppress the votes. Currently Kyrsten Sinema (D) is 9,610 votes ahead of Martha McSally (R). So those few votes could very well affect the outcome.
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I guess I really would like to know how this works. I'm an Arizona voter with a vote-by-mail ballot. I swing by my polling place and drop it off 2.7 seconds exactly before the polls close, where it's collected with many others. How is the recorder supposed to verify all of these signatures on election day? The process is supposed to permit me the opportunity to address any disparity in signatures, so when, exactly, am I supposed to be able to tell the recorder's office that I broke my arm three days ago? Are they supposed to go through the thousands of ballots they receive and make calls at 11:52PM on election day?

That makes no sense. The GOP lawsuit makes no sense. The interpretation of the law proposed makes no sense unless the law actually says that explicitly (which would certainly be possible - laws don't always make sense).
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perfalbion wrote:
I guess I really would like to know how this works.

I had always assumed that a mail-in turned in at a polling place was treated as a normal mail-in ballot.

The recorder held a press conference today and stated that "late earlies" have been treated more like provisional ballots.

If you vote with a provisional ballot you have five days from election day to go down to the recorders office to verify you are a registered voter.

Similarly, the recorders office has attempted to verify the signatures on "late earlies" within five days of the election. In the past, this hasn't been much of a problem. But this election has significantly more votes to count, and much more scrutiny. Their stated goal, however, is still to verify all questionable ballots within five days.

Edit: Part of the GOP suit requested a stay on *all* "late early" ballot counting. This evening a Judge denied the stay so counting has continued. There will be a hearing for the suit tomorrow.
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perfalbion wrote:
cormor321 wrote:
Of course any effort they make toward "fairer" elections is actually trying to gain advantage. That's a given. In this case getting every county to keep verifying rather than just two heavily democratic counties is to their advantage.


No. No it's not to their advantage. They don't want the Pima and Maricopa county ballots counted because those two counties are around 85% of the total population in the state. The relative advantage of having smaller counties doing the same would be minuscule.

Quote:
I'd counter you're bet with saying you aren't going to see the Democrats clamoring to get the other counties in the state to keep verifying signatures ending the suppression in those counties.


I'll bet you a further 50gg that the Democrats express absolutely no objections with the other counties continuing to verify ballots. In case you hadn't noticed, they're the party that actually tries to expand access to voting.


You're too rich for me, I don't have 100 to wager.

=edit-

Never mind, now I do.
 
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Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...
 
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dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.
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cormor321 wrote:
According to the link though the republican are saying they aren't suing to get democratic leaning counties to stop phone verifying signatures after the election, but rather to have all the counties in the state do the same thing.

The wording in the lawsuit is they want all counties to do it in a "uniform way", but doesn't request one option over the other so the actual original intent is impossible to verify.

If their claims of the direction they are taking the lawsuit end up being true it's actually them fighting voter suppression while those opposing the lawsuit are trying to suppress votes in conservative counties.



As I pointed out in another thread about the AZ senate race, Maricopa and Pima counties are the two largest population-wise and may genuinely require more time to process. Plus, when I moved to AZ 15 years ago, Maricopa voted republican; Pima flipped to Republican after Giffird’s was shot. The Republicans only challenge this process when the votes aren’t in their favor.

One distinction in AZ especially those areas, high number of Independents, Green, Libertarians, and ‘Other’ declared on registration.
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wifwendell wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.


It's kind of strange to me though, that these sorts of 'recounts' seem to always happen when dems are losing, and in the same counties (this is also the county where that infamous hanging chad debacle occurred remember)..
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garhkal wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.


It's kind of strange to me though, that these sorts of 'recounts' seem to always happen when dems are losing, and in the same counties (this is also the county where that infamous hanging chad debacle occurred remember)..

You're right, it certainly is strange that the highest-profile cases of ballot shenanigans are when Republicans are winning.
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wifwendell wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.


You know that's not how they decide winners in Florida.

They count so long as the Red is winning.

If that isn't looking good, they get a red court to say no more counting, the Red won.





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garhkal wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.


It's kind of strange to me though, that these sorts of 'recounts' seem to always happen when dems are losing, and in the same counties (this is also the county where that infamous hanging chad debacle occurred remember)..


Cherrypicking is easy, anyone can do it:

Wisconsin recount law changed by Gov. Scott Walker - who may be seeking a recount after loss to Evers
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/...
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cormor321 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
cormor321 wrote:
Of course any effort they make toward "fairer" elections is actually trying to gain advantage. That's a given. In this case getting every county to keep verifying rather than just two heavily democratic counties is to their advantage.


No. No it's not to their advantage. They don't want the Pima and Maricopa county ballots counted because those two counties are around 85% of the total population in the state. The relative advantage of having smaller counties doing the same would be minuscule.

Quote:
I'd counter you're bet with saying you aren't going to see the Democrats clamoring to get the other counties in the state to keep verifying signatures ending the suppression in those counties.


I'll bet you a further 50gg that the Democrats express absolutely no objections with the other counties continuing to verify ballots. In case you hadn't noticed, they're the party that actually tries to expand access to voting.


You're too rich for me, I don't have 100 to wager.

=edit-

Never mind, now I do.


And we have a split win. The Republicans really did ask to extend verification in other counties for my win of 50, the Democrats agreed to it for your win of 50.
 
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garhkal wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Marco Rubio is saying the dirty dems are trying to steal the Florida elections as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rubio-charges-dem-controlle...


By, you know, actually counting votes.


It's kind of strange to me though, that these sorts of 'recounts' seem to always happen when dems are losing, and in the same counties (this is also the county where that infamous hanging chad debacle occurred remember)..


A. Big counties take longer to count. That is simple math. Broward County is bigger (population) than a whole bunch of states.

B. You only NOTICE it when a race is close, AND when the count slowly changes from a perceived lead for one candidate, to a lead for the other (or a narrowing gap).

C. The order the votes are counted in should not matter.
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cormor321 wrote:
And we have a split win. The Republicans really did ask to extend verification in other counties for my win of 50, the Democrats agreed to it for your win of 50.


Yeah, I'll bet that if we look at the actual court documents that were filed, this wasn't the complaint and that this was what they adopted after someone pointed out to them how horrible this looked from a PR perspective.

Not that this is anything some people care about. The President suggested that the entire race needed to be re-run, basically because (horror of horrors!) votes are still being counted.
 
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