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Obsession» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Countering Largest Wine Cellar rss

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MAD Geologist
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Is there anyway to counter a player who has this tile, for a service courtship?
I can't see a way even with a full set of other service tiles, which is likely not an option.
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Mark Salamon
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Escondido
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When did this overtext thing happen? Am I supposed to think of something clever to put here?
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I think all the monuments probably give that family a very large chance of winning its category.

But yeah, Service tiles are particularly low in victory points.

Someone suggested that you count two points per servant on the Service courtship event. That would make stealing other players' servants more enticing too. But that sounds like a "mean" variant I'm not interested in.
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Garry Rice
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I have played with the monument tiles worth half for courtship purposes ...and others have suggested they should count 0 towards courtship but I think half seems reasonable if it bothers you.
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John Weber
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Mad Geologist wrote:
Is there anyway to counter a player who has this tile, for a service courtship?
I can't see a way even with a full set of other service tiles, which is likely not an option.


Play with the "expert" variant recommended in the fourth post down from the top of this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2083486/obsession-featured-...

The recommendation is that Monuments (and the two Suites, when flipped) should not be counted in assessing Courtship VPs.

Basically, Monument tiles are powerful enough (one rep turn, endgame VPs and bonus points on six of the 30 Objective cards) such that swinging the Courtship makes them WAY TOO POWERFUL.
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Mark Salamon
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When did this overtext thing happen? Am I supposed to think of something clever to put here?
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John Weber wrote:
swinging the Courtship makes them WAY TOO POWERFUL.


I think it makes thematic sense that the monuments are powerful. If Miss Fairchild is interested in the Estate category this season, then she is ABSOLUTELY going to visit any house in the neighborhood with a Garden Maze monument.
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Dan Hallagan

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Salamon wrote:
John Weber wrote:
swinging the Courtship makes them WAY TOO POWERFUL.


I think it makes thematic sense that the monuments 1re powerful. If Miss Fairchild is interested in the Estate category this season, then she is ABSOLUTELY going to visit any house in the neighborhood with a Garden Maze monument.

Most of the "luck" or "rich-get-richer" elements of Obsession are part of a devotion to theme and to empowering new players to be in the hunt and have a chance to win the game. Using the original rules of Obsession, I know that I can lose a game to a 1st time non-gamer pretty easily...and I believe this is a good thing. My primary purpose in the design of the game is to promote the theme/narrative/experience and to give non-gamers more than a puncher's chance to win.

However, I fully understand that this frustrates serious games, and several folks on BGG, led by John Weber, have worked with me to refine the variant rules that shift the focus of the game away from what I just described towards an interesting strategic challenge that rewards smart play.

I am happy both seem to coexist well, with many variants in between. But I do want owners of the game to hear my design intent.

Dan
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M M

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The best way to counter the largest wine cellar is to not counter it at all. Go straight into the high-point categories: prestige is the best, followed by estate. Extra bonus is that those categories also get you both reputation and guests, which are super-useful. The issue with prestige tiles is they tend to be pricy, so if you can get an American heiress, you want to grab her. Otherwise, you may need to invest in sporting to get the money you need and hope for good casual and prestige draws (estate tiles can help with this).

Strategic reasoning: Remember, they can only have so many points in service. So if you dominate the high point categories and they come out, you may still win the final courtship or a later season. Especially if you can get monuments in those categories. Your worst case scenario is double-service, which will be hard to beat (although not impossible). Here is where the prestige/estate tiles are particularly helpful: estate tiles help you acquire guests and get the invaluable VP-card prestige guests. Combined with high reputation from prestige tiles, those guests are suddenly very playable. A lot of those tiles don't require large groups, which is normally a negative, but a positive if you're trying to play the VP-card guests who need a ton of service staff. If you can get VP cards from those cards, you can easily melt their advantage away.

Another idea (incompatible with the above strategy due to money-intensity) is what I call the sporting tile dash. You get sporting tiles, combined with money-earning guests and save up enough for a monument. Then, pass and do the refresh option. If a monument comes out, you have first dibs. Oh, and if this is during the builder's holiday, then even if you don't get the monument, you can grab several good tiles. Toward the end game, you can also hoard money as 200 money is a a point, so you can get a pretty tidy point bonus (if there's no tiles that are a good VP return on money).

Also, I highly recommend someone (or more than one person) steals reputation from the wine cellar player. Not only is stealing reputation a service tile, so helpful toward the final courtship, but it mitigates the monument boost in reputation. Under no condition should you allow the wine cellar player to get this tile and steal your reputation. You may be able to win while losing literally every courtship, but you can't win if you you lose every courtship AND have a reputation that's constantly falling below the level you need in order to play a certain tile/guest.

I once had a game where I'd gone all-in on service, and then someone got the wine cellar and dominated the category. It was tragic. Well, she became the instant target for all attacks, while I quietly collected high-VP tiles and lo-and-behold, prestige flipped as a courtship category. I stole the final courtship and won the game.

Tl;dr: don't compete on service, accept they've won that category and go for a different strategy.
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Dan Hallagan

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Achire wrote:
The best way to counter the largest wine cellar is to not counter it at all. Go straight into the high-point categories: prestige is the best, followed by estate. Extra bonus is that those categories also get you both reputation and guests, which are super-useful. The issue with prestige tiles is they tend to be pricy, so if you can get an American heiress, you want to grab her. Otherwise, you may need to invest in sporting to get the money you need and hope for good casual and prestige draws (estate tiles can help with this).

Strategic reasoning: Remember, they can only have so many points in service. So if you dominate the high point categories and they come out, you may still win the final courtship or a later season. Especially if you can get monuments in those categories.

This is so true and the perfect strategy when you are closed out on a courtship. The second you are, don't chase! Move powerfully towards a category that will count big in the final courtship. Bravo, MM!

Quote:
Another idea (incompatible with the above strategy due to money-intensity) is what I call the sporting tile dash. You get sporting tiles, combined with money-earning guests and save up enough for a monument. Then, pass and do the refresh option. If a monument comes out, you have first dibs. Oh, and if this is during the builder's holiday, then even if you don't get the monument, you can grab several good tiles.

More genius here! As I say in the Glossary:



I would fear playing MM! She's dialed in.
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Matt Manda
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Salamon wrote:
Someone suggested that you count two points per servant on the Service courtship event. That would make stealing other players' servants more enticing too. But that sounds like a "mean" variant I'm not interested in.

That was me. It probably goes to show what care-bear players my wife and I are, that it never occurred to me that stealing staff might then become more prevalent, as this is something we would never do. We even remove the servants hall tiles and the gossiping gentry!
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Dan Hallagan

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MattNManda wrote:
Salamon wrote:
Someone suggested that you count two points per servant on the Service courtship event. That would make stealing other players' servants more enticing too. But that sounds like a "mean" variant I'm not interested in.

That was me. It probably goes to show what care-bear players my wife and I are, that it never occurred to me that stealing staff might then become more prevalent, as this is something we would never do. We even remove the servants hall tiles and the gossiping gentry!

Have you tried the cooperative version? It is folks like you and your wife I have in mind, care bear players, for whom I made that version.
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