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KeyForge: Call of the Archons» Forums » General

Subject: Mechanics for future waves rss

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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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What would be worth seeing in the future? Some possibilities:

* Multi-house cards (35 rares that can be played as either house)
* Neutral cards that don't have house requirements to play
* Switching houses mid-turn (sacrificing or gaining chains to do so)
* Artifacts or creatures that can hold cards to play out-of-house on a future turn
* Alternative victory conditions
* Archons with abilities (including victory conditions)
* Archons with pre-printed chains (may need to use with previous)
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Kevin B. Smith
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Just a few ideas:
* More protection against stealing, for sure
* More twists on what happens to captured aember
* A wider variety of non-random learning decks (as someone suggested in another thread)
* Artifacts that can reap or fight?
* Cards that can shift back and forth between artifact and creature status


But I *really* hope they hold off on releasing a second set for as long as possible. I want KeyForge to be an evergreen, not a "set of the month" that I constantly feel compelled to keep up with. The shortest cycle I would be comfortable with would be one new set per year (and longer would be better). I suspect I'll be disappointed.
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Use Purged creatures
 
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Greg Michealson
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How about a mechanic that lets you play cards on your opponents turn? For example, cards that counter actions or artifacts.
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Kevin B. Smith
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pocketroid wrote:
Use Purged creatures

Or at least a card whose power varies based on what has been purged.

mrspank wrote:
How about a mechanic that lets you play cards on your opponents turn? For example, cards that counter actions or artifacts.

Ooh, I hope not. The design very intentionally avoids any interrupts, allowing one player at a time to fully complete their turn. That's really valuable for online play, but is nice for IRL play too.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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I hope that future waves would play well with each other. A first wave needs to drive the basic mechanics home and avoid confusing people with extra stuff.

One possible Archon power could be 'When forging keys, [NAME] may use either Æmber from their pool or Æmber captured by their creatures, but not both.' Only Archons with a minimum amount of capturing could get this power and their names might contain titles or adjectives to reflect this.

There might be ways to balance Archon powers without chains; 'Each turn on which you reap, gain an additional 1 Æ. Each turn on which you fight, treat one creature you fight against as having +1 armour.'

Game mechanics probably shouldn't get shut out, but artifacts or creatures that convert stealing to capturing or vice versa could be interesting.

I didn't immediately come up with compelling ways to make artifacts more like creatures or creatures more like artifacts. The battle line makes it tricky.
 
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peakhope wrote:
Just a few ideas:
* More protection against stealing, for sure

The bounce effects are very powerful against this, already.

I played my creature-based steal deck, which is recently strong, against a deck that limited me to playing 2 cards per turn and had 2 bounce effects out, and it shut me down for the rest of the game, almost completely.
 
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This was the first thing I thought of for balance against some combos. They don't have to be interrupts, they can be reap/right effects (maybe limited to being on creatures, so they can be countered relatively easily.
 
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J. Chris Miller
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peakhope wrote:
Just a few ideas:
* More protection against stealing, for sure
* More twists on what happens to captured aember
* A wider variety of non-random learning decks (as someone suggested in another thread)
* Artifacts that can reap or fight?
* Cards that can shift back and forth between artifact and creature status


But I *really* hope they hold off on releasing a second set for as long as possible. I want KeyForge to be an evergreen, not a "set of the month" that I constantly feel compelled to keep up with. The shortest cycle I would be comfortable with would be one new set per year (and longer would be better). I suspect I'll be disappointed.


More cards is always more fun! I hope for they release 3 sets a year at least.
 
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peakhope wrote:
pocketroid wrote:
Use Purged creatures

Or at least a card whose power varies based on what has been purged.

Good idea! A Cursed House, who needs to purge the evil within to ascend to the Sanctum islands in the sky. For every purged Curse card, increase your Power by +1, or hand size, or any number of things.
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coyotemoon722 wrote:
peakhope wrote:
Just a few ideas:
* More protection against stealing, for sure
* More twists on what happens to captured aember
* A wider variety of non-random learning decks (as someone suggested in another thread)
* Artifacts that can reap or fight?
* Cards that can shift back and forth between artifact and creature status


But I *really* hope they hold off on releasing a second set for as long as possible. I want KeyForge to be an evergreen, not a "set of the month" that I constantly feel compelled to keep up with. The shortest cycle I would be comfortable with would be one new set per year (and longer would be better). I suspect I'll be disappointed.


More cards is always more fun! I hope for they release 3 sets a year at least.

Magic drafts usually get a bit quiet after a couple months, unless a set really promotes diversity of successful strategies. I'd assume they would plan on a new set every 3-4 months to shake things up and keep interest high, as the aging format gets solved and a couple play styles are found to dominate.
 
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Xelto G
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mlvanbie wrote:
* Neutral cards that don't have house requirements to play

I know this game was designed with the attitude of 'this will make it so we don't have to obsess about balancing', but how would you keep this in check? Part of the balancing of the game is that you can only play or use so much of your hand at any given time.

Quote:
* Alternative victory conditions

Any examples you would care to toss out?
 
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Xelto wrote:
Quote:
* Alternative victory conditions

Any examples you would care to toss out?

In my experience, these ruin games and aren't fun to play against. But it could be different for KeyForge, since it's a different kind of game.
 
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Two houses that are always together.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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Xelto wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
* Neutral cards that don't have house requirements to play

I know this game was designed with the attitude of 'this will make it so we don't have to obsess about balancing', but how would you keep this in check? Part of the balancing of the game is that you can only play or use so much of your hand at any given time.

It could be a relatively weak card, having value just because of its neutrality.

Quote:
Quote:
* Alternative victory conditions

Any examples you would care to toss out?

* Purging X of your opponent's creatures
* Building a board of X creatures
* Gaining X of some new resource

I'm not sure I would like any of those, but there certainly are possibilities.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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I like peakhope's response, but I can add some more suggestions.

Other than making a neutral card fairly weak (generates 1 Æ), there's always chains. A neutral Phase Shift might give 2 chains, for example. An action might require you to stun one of your creatures to have its effect. You could have a creature that stuns itself whenever it reaps or fights.

With special maverick creatures you could win if you have all three copies in play at the start of your turn. Presumably they would be weak and non-elusive.

It is also possible to have unique ways to get keys, such as Epic Quest.

Villainous manages to use the same rules for six villains yet give them completely different objectives and things to do on their turns. (Also costs about half as much per deck(+token+board+booklet) as KeyForge.) Admittedly it is easier to balance there.

I'm not sure that KeyForge needs new content injected as often as other games. Since you can't construct decks you will always see new things from unique decks instead of watching the meta quickly stabilize. However, the average effect of each hit will diminish over time; this may be worst for people who buy lots of decks at once. Guaranteeing that new decks will contain one of several new mechanisms every few months can keep people buying without invalidating old decks. (Some power creep over time is desirable for commercial reasons, but also a good idea since when the new decks are competing with other new decks, they are probably playing against the best of the older ones.)
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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mlvanbie wrote:
* Artifacts or creatures that can hold cards to play out-of-house on a future turn


That would be Masterplan -- I need one.
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Kelly Overholser
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I agree that the game doesn't need constant releases like TCGs do, because the meta can't really "stabilize". You can't have everyone building the same deck in multiple different tournaments, because the decks are unique and non-customizable.

The game probably will need new releases occasionally, but I'd say a new release every 6-12 months would be enough.
 
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patrick mullen
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Ideas:
* not too much breaking out of houses - danger of diluting game
* something to let capture be a bit stronger - spend captured aember on abilities?
* artifacts with play abilities
* upgrades that can stick around
* more use for power tokens
* more artifact hate or just disruption (exhaust artifact, damage artifacts, restrict artifact use by called faction etc)
* something to help bust shields (ignore shields for this attack etc)
* more line disruption (swap two on opponents line, move non flank to a flank)
* more neigbor abilities (neigbors gain hazardous)
* bonus aember disruption (opponent gains no bonus aember next turn? Dunno)
* reap disruption (cant use creatures to reap)
* creature who puts aember on itself when reaping. Sone way to get it off - same card or maybe a mechanic

I hope for around 1 set a year, with previous year set still sold.
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Sethala wrote:
I agree that the game doesn't need constant releases like TCGs do, because the meta can't really "stabilize". You can't have everyone building the same deck in multiple different tournaments, because the decks are unique and non-customizable.

The game probably will need new releases occasionally, but I'd say a new release every 6-12 months would be enough.
From what I saw, limiting play to 2 cards along with 2 bounce cards has the potential to dominate the early meta pretty quickly. People will be looking for decks that can counter that, or they'll have some miserable match-ups in which they don't even get to play.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Things we know that are upcoming:

* more-exciting uses of purge
* token creatures

Other possibilities:

* rares that add specials to your deck without replacing cards (> 36 cards; not sure if they would fit in the box)
* rares that add specials replacing cards in other factions (problem solved!)

Perhaps Archon powers are just possible artifacts. Nonetheless, more Archon powers:

* when you capture, capture +1
* when you steal, you may steal from captured Æmber on your creatures
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Today while waiting between games of KeyForge, I got to thinking about Magic sideboards. Here is something that could be done in a future wave.

Each deck comes with three extra cards (one per house), which might only appear in this slot or could be mavericks. They are marked with a sideboard symbol that contains a number of chains.

Before a match, both players inspect their opponent's Archon (or at least houses). Secretly they can choose zero or one cards from each house. These are revealed, removed from the deck and replaced by the sideboard cards. Each player gains chains accordingly, but chains should be reduced equally so that one player has 0 chains. Play as normal.

I think that this would be a fun way to react to your opponent's deck and gives restricted deckbuilding. You can also just take chains to replace a card you don't like with a cool card.

Balance with earlier waves is an issue since merely having a choice is an advantage. This can be solved in one of several ways:

* say you can't use sideboard cards against decks of earlier waves
* the wave might be weaker on average before including sideboards
* Archons in each wave could come with a chain adjustment
* increase the cost of the sideboard cards significantly (discourages having more substitutions than your opponent, so not so great)
* power creep sells more decks; people who don't like it can use chains

I'm seriously considering prototyping this using sleeve inserts for the sideboard cards (a sheet of paper to add to the sleeve of a replaced card). Any suggestions of appropriate mavericks or card designs would be appreciated. For example, Protect the Weak appearing in Shadows would be worth serious chains.
 
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Gary Boyd
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*I really don't want to see Archons for a long time, if at all. We're supposed be the Archons. Maybe having Archon Ultimate card or Archon action cards in the deck that are expensive to use with in-game resources and are purged after use, but no text on Archon cards themselves. It would ruin the aesthetics of the game.
* New and interesting types of resources.
* Shield tokens.
* I like neutral House cards. There could be two kinds and they might help avoid lockdown situations, as they would be considered no House or any House cards"
* Avoiding power creep by balancing with chains, amber, or other resources to utilize specific cards. I want to avoid player balancing as much as possible. Most players tend to have vague notions of how good a deck is.
* I know the current ruling is that a creature can't exist with 0 power, but I really would love to see a House based on 0 power creatures that is all about actions, upgrades, abilities, and artifacts that buff them and give them really good abilities. Actions and artifacts would allow you to play them with > 0 power. Their strong abilities would be balanced by the fact they're more difficult to get on the board.
* I don't want this to be Magic the KeyForging. So, in general I would rather they come up with mechanics that are specific to the game we're playing, and not just copies of what Magic does. I know there are very few things that Magic hasn't done, but finding a space where the two games don't overlap. If I'm to continue to play, using that space is really important to me.
* A House that has few if any creatures, rendering certain houses much less effective. Shadows kind of does this.
* A House centered around purging cards to thin your deck.
* A House that cannot forge keys in the normal way, centered around alternate means to forge keys (forging immediately before your opponent's turn or when a certain type of card is played by your opponent, utilizing artifacts, upgrades, abilities, and actions.
* Rogue Houses that have restrictions on when you can play them. They would be less powerful in general, but in combination with other rogue factions or forging alliances with other houses (in game) would allow players to do powerful things that add a lot of chains.
* Houses without specific types of cards.
* A House about reaction to what your opponent has done on their previous turn.
* A House that utilizes amber as a currency and can win based almost exclusively by playing its own game of investment and gaining amber on cards.
* Continue to support and utilize old houses.
* No sideboard or extra cards. The game is based on a 36 card deck, I don't want this to change.
* The allowance of d6 in tournaments. This isn't Netrunner or L5R; it's a unique game, and shouldn't be stifled by blanket FFG tournament rules. Except of course Star Wars: Destiny which utilizes D6 and has clearly defined rules around their usage.



 
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Gary Boyd
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mrspank wrote:
How about a mechanic that lets you play cards on your opponents turn? For example, cards that counter actions or artifacts.


This would completely negate the potential for online play that isn't real time. I would want to avoid this to make a digital version of the game more likely to succeed.
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Richard Dewsbery
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Multi-house cards; cards that "belong" to two houses, and can show up in decks for one, the other, or both.

New houses.

peakhope wrote:
But I *really* hope they hold off on releasing a second set for as long as possible. I want KeyForge to be an evergreen, not a "set of the month" that I constantly feel compelled to keep up with.

That's not really a concern here, though. We're never going to "keep up" with the current card pool as it is; it doesn't matter to me if my one-in-14-trillion deck is from this month's release, next month's or next year's.

mrspank wrote:
How about a mechanic that lets you play cards on your opponents turn? For example, cards that counter actions or artifacts.

No. For the reasons already given. It ups the complexities and areas of potential conflict over the rules tenfold, too.
 
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