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R. Frazier
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And boy do I agree with this one:

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/this-is-all-donald-trump-h...

"His politics, to the extent that they’ve ever been legible, have always been off-the-rack big city tabloid bullshit—crudely racist exterminate the brutes/back the blue authoritarianism in the background and ruthless petty rich person squabbling in the front. His actions since becoming president have been those of a dim, cruel child playacting at being a powerful man—giving orders without quite knowing what they mean or how they might be carried out, taunting enemies, beating up the people he can afford to beat up without having to be called to account for it, lying as needed or just for yuks. He hasn’t changed a thing since graduating from punchline to president. It’s been clear for decades that Trump was both an asshole and a dummy; this is now a problem not just for the odd unlucky cocktail waitress and his staff of cheesy apparatchiks but for literally every person on earth.

Presidents exert a kind of ambient influence on the culture, but as Trump is different than previous presidents his influence necessarily feels different. Barack Obama wanted to be a cosmopolitan leader who brought people together and into a deeper empathy through a mastery of reason and rules; the country he governed doesn’t work like that, though, and the tension between that cool vision and this seething reality grew and grew. By the end, his presidency had the feeling of a prestige television show in its fifth season—handsomely produced and reliably well-performed but ultimately not really as sure what it was about as it first appeared to be. Trump has no such pretense or noble aspiration, and has only made the country more like himself; living in his America feels like being trapped in a garish casino that is filling with seawater, because that is what it is."

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Wow. Another spot-on para:

David Roth of Deadspin wrote:
This is more or less what Trump has always thought the news should be like: people with microphones clamoring for his opinion and asking him about himself. For decades the man has dreamed of reporters calling out “please, sir, what’s the latest on your personal feuds” or “sir, how did you achieve this amazing success?” while he delivers flirty winking answers. That this is not the way it goes now that he’s president clearly causes him great frustration. Watch these pissy helicopter-adjacent scrums and you may see a lumpy pink dope bellowing “we’re looking into that very strongly” in response to questions he transparently can’t answer and dispensing whatever thudding speculative idiocy he thinks will get him to the next question. Other people will see what Trump sees. The important thing for him is that the microphones are still pointed in the right direction.
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I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.


Reagan used dog whistles, Trump uses megaphones. That does have a real effect as the latter emboldens racists even more. So the delivery DOES matter.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.


I think you're confusing "some areas of policy" with "politics." Sure, Reagan was terrible on civil rights, particularly LGBT rights and the AIDS epidemic. But he didn't demonize these people as a way of getting votes in the way that Trump does. He could work across the aisle to get legislation passed and did so quite successfully - the Democrats had control of both houses of the legislature. He could accept that his opposition weren't his enemies.

Trumps style of politics is a massive difference. It's far closer to George Wallace when he ran for President on an explicitly segregationist/racist platform than any Republican President since that I can think of. And I think it's arguably worse than Wallace. At least Wallace was completely honest about his goals and the meaning of his speech. The degree of deception that's part-and-parcel of Trumpism is truly astonishing. The fact that it's so shallow and easy to see through, yet doesn't seem to bother his supporters is actually scary in a number of ways.

We need to hope that Trump is a one-off. An outlier. We need to work to make it so. Because his style of politics is really scary and there be dragons down the path it follows.
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Frank
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.


Reagan used dog whistles, Trump uses megaphones. That does have a real effect as the latter emboldens racists even more. So the delivery DOES matter.


I'm no reagan fan, but this wouldn't happen in 80's america;

Quote:
A photo showing a group of male, mostly white Wisconsin high school students with their arms raised in what appear to be Nazi salutes has sparked an investigation by police and the school district, along with criticism from a Holocaust memorial group.

The image of students in the Baraboo School District originally was posted on the @GoBaraboo parody account with the caption, "We even got the black kid to throw it up."


https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/12/us/baraboo-high-school-nazi-s...
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Frankiedamn wrote:
I'm no reagan fan, but this wouldn't happen in 80's america;


I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did, actually. The lack of the Internet makes it a lot easier for something like this to go on and go unreported. And there was a whole lot of pretty overt racism around - there were still fights over school segregation and busing in areas.

It's horrible that it happened in 2018. But we shouldn't pretend it couldn't/didn't happen in 1982. What we can recognize is that the President's rhetoric in 1982 would not appear to endorse such behavior and thought.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.

No, Trump spewing bigotry, idolizing dictators, and has no sticking point.
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perfalbion wrote:
The degree of deception that's part-and-parcel of Trumpism is truly astonishing. The fact that it's so shallow and easy to see through, yet doesn't seem to bother his supporters is actually scary in a number of ways.

We need to hope that Trump is a one-off. An outlier. We need to work to make it so. Because his style of politics is really scary and there be dragons down the path it follows.


This is the shit that scares me. Even if Trump left office tomorrow to spend the rest of his days in a pile of erotically-shaped gummy candies, as is his dream, that still leaves us with a huge chunk of the electorate that no longer adheres to an objective reality. They'll believe literally anything and deny literally anything, no matter how ironclad factual it is, either out of political allegiance, spite, or whatever the fuck. It started with stuff that a layman might not conceivably understand, like climate change, but has now extended to things anyone with at least two performing senses could verify if they cared enough to. Either they don't know they're being lied to, which makes them gullible and ignorant at best, or they DO know and don't care, which is infinitely worse.

I'd like to think this is just the Trump Effect, too. But I strongly suspect that Trump's brazenness has simply given the conservative base the last push they needed to drop all pretext of honor and fair play, and just give in to their basest prejudices and instincts.
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eaglebeak wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
The degree of deception that's part-and-parcel of Trumpism is truly astonishing. The fact that it's so shallow and easy to see through, yet doesn't seem to bother his supporters is actually scary in a number of ways.

We need to hope that Trump is a one-off. An outlier. We need to work to make it so. Because his style of politics is really scary and there be dragons down the path it follows.


This is the shit that scares me. Even if Trump left office tomorrow to spend the rest of his days in a pile of erotically-shaped gummy candies, as is his dream, that still leaves us with a huge chunk of the electorate that no longer adheres to an objective reality. They'll believe literally anything and deny literally anything, no matter how ironclad factual it is, either out of political allegiance, spite, or whatever the fuck. It started with stuff that a layman might not conceivably understand, like climate change, but has now extended to things anyone with at least two performing senses could verify if they cared enough to. Either they don't know they're being lied to, which makes them gullible and ignorant at best, or they DO know and don't care, which is infinitely worse.

I'd like to think this is just the Trump Effect, too. But I strongly suspect that Trump's brazenness has simply given the conservative base the last push they needed to drop all pretext of honor and fair play, and just give in to their basest prejudices and instincts.


Sadly (because I don't want it to be true), this post sums up how I feel about our situation exactly. It's why I don't see any end to the divisiveness. We are in a Civil War started by people who have chosen to live in their own reality; either join them or be the enemy. I'll be the enemy then.



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Maybe I'm unrealistically optimistic, but I do see us coming out of the other side of Trumpism in the not-too-distant future. Politics involves swings, and often violent swings when you hit particularly reactionary/revolutionary sentiments. But that ends. If you consider the Tea Party the start of a reactionary swing, then we're 8 years into this trend of increasing polarization. And as it's gone on, it's required more and more stoking to retain its heat.

Eventually, people stop believing even the big lie. Eventually, they realize that they're being fed rage to replace reason. Eventually, they realize that the policies being put forward actually aren't good for them.

I think we're closing in on the end of this swing of the pendulum. I certainly hope so or it's going to get very, very ugly.
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Frankiedamn wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.


Reagan used dog whistles, Trump uses megaphones. That does have a real effect as the latter emboldens racists even more. So the delivery DOES matter.


I'm no reagan fan, but this wouldn't happen in 80's america;

Quote:
A photo showing a group of male, mostly white Wisconsin high school students with their arms raised in what appear to be Nazi salutes has sparked an investigation by police and the school district, along with criticism from a Holocaust memorial group.

The image of students in the Baraboo School District originally was posted on the @GoBaraboo parody account with the caption, "We even got the black kid to throw it up."


https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/12/us/baraboo-high-school-nazi-s...


Anyone who points backward for times of less racial division is deluding themselves. The media landscape in terms of connection and usage is entirely different than it was in the 80's.

I don't think Reagan or Trump have anything to do with it. Trump is the symptom, not the problem.

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perfalbion wrote:
Frankiedamn wrote:
I'm no reagan fan, but this wouldn't happen in 80's america;


I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did, actually. The lack of the Internet makes it a lot easier for something like this to go on and go unreported. And there was a whole lot of pretty overt racism around - there were still fights over school segregation and busing in areas.

It's horrible that it happened in 2018. But we shouldn't pretend it couldn't/didn't happen in 1982. What we can recognize is that the President's rhetoric in 1982 would not appear to endorse such behavior and thought.

I'm not sure it was this overtly organized but there was definitely this sentiment in the small town white america I grew up in.
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eaglebeak wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
The degree of deception that's part-and-parcel of Trumpism is truly astonishing. The fact that it's so shallow and easy to see through, yet doesn't seem to bother his supporters is actually scary in a number of ways.

We need to hope that Trump is a one-off. An outlier. We need to work to make it so. Because his style of politics is really scary and there be dragons down the path it follows.


This is the shit that scares me. Even if Trump left office tomorrow to spend the rest of his days in a pile of erotically-shaped gummy candies, as is his dream, that still leaves us with a huge chunk of the electorate that no longer adheres to an objective reality. They'll believe literally anything and deny literally anything, no matter how ironclad factual it is, either out of political allegiance, spite, or whatever the fuck. It started with stuff that a layman might not conceivably understand, like climate change, but has now extended to things anyone with at least two performing senses could verify if they cared enough to. Either they don't know they're being lied to, which makes them gullible and ignorant at best, or they DO know and don't care, which is infinitely worse.

I'd like to think this is just the Trump Effect, too. But I strongly suspect that Trump's brazenness has simply given the conservative base the last push they needed to drop all pretext of honor and fair play, and just give in to their basest prejudices and instincts.


It's not conservative/liberal or left/right.

It's authoritarian/anti authoritarian.

Racist and nationalist policies chosen by republicans to be elected to power have concentrated almost all the authoritarians on the conservative side of the boat. But they can just as easily line up behind leftist authoritarians.

We always must be watchful of falling to authoritarian policies, tendencies, intolerance, and "othering".


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maxo-texas wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
The degree of deception that's part-and-parcel of Trumpism is truly astonishing. The fact that it's so shallow and easy to see through, yet doesn't seem to bother his supporters is actually scary in a number of ways.

We need to hope that Trump is a one-off. An outlier. We need to work to make it so. Because his style of politics is really scary and there be dragons down the path it follows.


This is the shit that scares me. Even if Trump left office tomorrow to spend the rest of his days in a pile of erotically-shaped gummy candies, as is his dream, that still leaves us with a huge chunk of the electorate that no longer adheres to an objective reality. They'll believe literally anything and deny literally anything, no matter how ironclad factual it is, either out of political allegiance, spite, or whatever the fuck. It started with stuff that a layman might not conceivably understand, like climate change, but has now extended to things anyone with at least two performing senses could verify if they cared enough to. Either they don't know they're being lied to, which makes them gullible and ignorant at best, or they DO know and don't care, which is infinitely worse.

I'd like to think this is just the Trump Effect, too. But I strongly suspect that Trump's brazenness has simply given the conservative base the last push they needed to drop all pretext of honor and fair play, and just give in to their basest prejudices and instincts.


It's not conservative/liberal or left/right.

It's authoritarian/anti authoritarian.

Racist and nationalist policies chosen by republicans to be elected to power have concentrated almost all the authoritarians on the conservative side of the boat. But they can just as easily line up behind leftist authoritarians.

We always must be watchful of falling to authoritarian policies, tendencies, intolerance, and "othering".


That's what disturbs me about a lot of views expressed here and elsewhere. Large swaths of people wanting to blame someone else for their issues is what drives so much support for Donald.

People on the left seem to want to do this constantly now. Pointing at the other side and saying "they bad" isn't setting yourself apart. And it won't solve a thing other than keeping narratives of division moving forward.
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WetRock wrote:


That's what disturbs me about a lot of views expressed here and elsewhere. Large swaths of people wanting to blame someone else for their issues is what drives so much support for Donald.

People on the left seem to want to do this constantly now. Pointing at the other side and saying "they bad" isn't setting yourself apart. And it won't solve a thing other than keeping narratives of division moving forward.


Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
I'm not actually convinced Trump is qualitively different than previous presidents like Bush and (especially) Reagan. Reagan's record on civil rights issues was consistently awful.

What's different about Trump is his delivery.


The difference is that Reagan and the Bushes (and even Nixon) Thought they were doing good for the US and the World.

Trump doesn't give a fuck about the nation, or in fact about anything but himself.
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eaglebeak wrote:
WetRock wrote:


That's what disturbs me about a lot of views expressed here and elsewhere. Large swaths of people wanting to blame someone else for their issues is what drives so much support for Donald.

People on the left seem to want to do this constantly now. Pointing at the other side and saying "they bad" isn't setting yourself apart. And it won't solve a thing other than keeping narratives of division moving forward.


Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.


You're just getting a little tired now? I've been exhausted since mid november 2016
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WetRock wrote:
Anyone who points backward for times of less racial division is deluding themselves. The media landscape in terms of connection and usage is entirely different than it was in the 80's.


Well good thing I didn't "point backward for times of less racial division" then isn't it?

Of course the 80's were full of racial division, duh. What is different is actually nazi imagery and rhetoric has gone mainstream. I don't know where you guys grew up and I'm sorry if those places were awash in white power and nazi imagery, it just wasn't the case where I grew up. I guess it might have to do with living close enough to the museum of tolerance and taking school trips there, so the realities of nazism and the holocaust were part of our consciousness from a young age.

Nazi's were always the bad guys. It wasn't until recently that the gun shop owner in falling down would be viewed sympathetically by a significant number of americans.
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Frankiedamn wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
WetRock wrote:


That's what disturbs me about a lot of views expressed here and elsewhere. Large swaths of people wanting to blame someone else for their issues is what drives so much support for Donald.

People on the left seem to want to do this constantly now. Pointing at the other side and saying "they bad" isn't setting yourself apart. And it won't solve a thing other than keeping narratives of division moving forward.


Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.


You're just getting a little tired now? I've been exhausted since mid november 2016


I've never seen anything like it. Apparently liberals are to blame for the people non-liberals voted for. It's amazing. How dare liberals exist so that they can be relentlessly demonized to fire up a conservative voter base? It's all their fault. Or something.

Don't talk about Trump. It makes him more powerful. Just sit there say nothing at all. That'll stop him!
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eaglebeak wrote:
Frankiedamn wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
WetRock wrote:


That's what disturbs me about a lot of views expressed here and elsewhere. Large swaths of people wanting to blame someone else for their issues is what drives so much support for Donald.

People on the left seem to want to do this constantly now. Pointing at the other side and saying "they bad" isn't setting yourself apart. And it won't solve a thing other than keeping narratives of division moving forward.


Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.


You're just getting a little tired now? I've been exhausted since mid november 2016


I've never seen anything like it. Apparently liberals are to blame for the people non-liberals voted for. It's amazing. How dare liberals exist so that they can be relentlessly demonized to fire up a conservative voter base? It's all their fault. Or something.

Don't talk about Trump. It makes him more powerful. Just sit there say nothing at all. That'll stop him!


Also mustn't talk about

Putting children in camps
Helping the 1% loot the country
The Demonization of the Latino and Muslim community
The assaults on LGTBQ rights
The attempts at eradicating the Transgender Community in a legal sense
Etc

We should just shut the fuck up because one does not want to be mean to the perpetrators and their supporters.

"See what you made them do". The defense of bullies from the beginning of time.

What pile of smelly old bollocks
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eaglebeak wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.


How you say "they bad" matters a lot. A whole lot of people go straight to "Well, you must be a racist, fascist xenophobe!" And that's never going to work. Believe it or not, psychologists/psychiatrists will tell you that the best way to counter Trump's style of BS is to just keep point to facts. Eventually, that will break through.

Where the anti-Trumpers help is by going to an extreme that helps Trump and his supporters to paint this as a culture war and reinforce biases. By ramping up the opposition rhetoric, you make the rhetoric you despise work better.

Folks can pretend this doesn't happen, but there's actual science that shows that it does.
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perfalbion wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing that everything liberals say and do helps Donald Trump. I think some of us try way too hard to play peacemaker with people who have no interest in peace in the first place.

Like, is there a comprehensive guide as to how the rest of us can discuss Trump without giving him more mutant powers? Help us out here.


How you say "they bad" matters a lot. A whole lot of people go straight to "Well, you must be a racist, fascist xenophobe!" And that's never going to work. Believe it or not, psychologists/psychiatrists will tell you that the best way to counter Trump's style of BS is to just keep point to facts. Eventually, that will break through.

Where the anti-Trumpers help is by going to an extreme that helps Trump and his supporters to paint this as a culture war and reinforce biases. By ramping up the opposition rhetoric, you make the rhetoric you despise work better.

Folks can pretend this doesn't happen, but there's actual science that shows that it does.


I'm not saying you're wrong; you're usually right.

But do you ever feel like you've been taken hostage in all this shit?
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eaglebeak wrote:
But do you ever feel like you've been taken hostage in all this shit?


Me? Yes. But by both sides. I find a good number of the liberal posters to this forum at least as insulting as the conservatives they disparage, just for different reasons.

I agree with everyone that says we need to resist the direction that Trumpism is taking us. I strongly disagree with a lot of the strategies people have adopted to do it. Moreover, the pressure that people put on elected officials to do stupid things. Nancy Pelosi is taken flak for saying "We won't impeach," but she is 100% right to adopt that strategy until there's concrete things to use as the basis and there's at least a chance of conviction in the Senate.

It annoys me that people can be dumb enough to help the people they oppose.
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perfalbion wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
But do you ever feel like you've been taken hostage in all this shit?


Me? Yes. But by both sides. I find a good number of the liberal posters to this forum at least as insulting as the conservatives they disparage, just for different reasons.

I agree with everyone that says we need to resist the direction that Trumpism is taking us. I strongly disagree with a lot of the strategies people have adopted to do it. Moreover, the pressure that people put on elected officials to do stupid things. Nancy Pelosi is taken flak for saying "We won't impeach," but she is 100% right to adopt that strategy until there's concrete things to use as the basis and there's at least a chance of conviction in the Senate.

It annoys me that people can be dumb enough to help the people they oppose.


That's fair. But I think we also have to understand their frustration that they have to play by certain rules, and others don't. At this site, especially, we should sympathize with lopsided game balance.

Not everyone can be spit on, mocked, or even attacked by their own government, and turn the other cheek. Always having to be the adult isn't fair, or fun. (Presumably; I've not tried it.)
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