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Arkham Horror (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Lead Investigators Who Get Devoured/Defeated/Retired rss

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John
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If the lead investigator is devoured, defeated, retired, or otherwise removed from the game, what happens to game effects that target the leader in the period before the leader player has chosen their new investigator? The player does not choose/place the new investigator until the next round, so there are a few phases that could target the leader even though the leader has no investigator in play.

Specifically:

1) If a monster says to "spawn at the street space nearest the leader" but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? Does the monster just not spawn? Do you keep drawing until you draw a spawn-able monster? Do you spawn in the street next to the next available investigator?

2) If a Headline or Archive card targets the leader, but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? (I may be mis-remembering, but I think there are both Headline and Archive cards that do this. Perhaps not.)

My assumption for both of these was that you just (temporarily) treated the next player as the leader until the leader had a new lead investigator on the board. But then I started thinking about solo/single-investigator play, which led me to:

3) If you are playing a solo/single-investigator game, and a game effect targets the leader while you are (temporarily) without a character due to being devoured, defeated, or retired, what happens?

If there's an official FFG ruling on this that I missed, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I'd appreciate all suggestions.

Thanks!
 
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Craig Fox
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Easiest way I can think of is to use the starting space, defined by the scenario, as a catch-all for any space which is unknown at the time.

Or you could have the leader space be where the lead investigator perished, though this would mean marking the space with something, or laying the figure down till it's replaced.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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This is a very good question.

This is an actual blind spot in the rules. I'll send the query off to FFG.

I'm adding to that question what you do when the Leader is not in Arkham at all (the Codex can add spaces that can be moved to, but aren't adjacent to any other space).
 
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John Curtis
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If the lead investigator is devoured/defeated, we just assumed that the lead investigator "role" passes to the left. If the lead investigator is not in Arkham, I would assume the effect would target the last space the lead investigator was in when he was in Arkham ("I know he was here somewhere... I'll just wait until he shows up again" <g>.
 
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John
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Odysseus3 wrote:
If the lead investigator is devoured/defeated, we just assumed that the lead investigator "role" passes to the left.


Does the role stay passed to the left for the remainder of the game (i.e., the leader player changes)? Or just for the 1-3 phases of the current round when the leader player does not have an investigator on the board?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jda1974 wrote:
Odysseus3 wrote:
If the lead investigator is devoured/defeated, we just assumed that the lead investigator "role" passes to the left.


Does the role stay passed to the left for the remainder of the game (i.e., the leader player changes)? Or just for the 1-3 phases of the current round when the leader player does not have an investigator on the board?

The rules don't say anything about ever trading your leader activation token with the others, so you probably shouldn't.
 
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John
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Clipper wrote:
jda1974 wrote:
Odysseus3 wrote:
If the lead investigator is devoured/defeated, we just assumed that the lead investigator "role" passes to the left.


Does the role stay passed to the left for the remainder of the game (i.e., the leader player changes)? Or just for the 1-3 phases of the current round when the leader player does not have an investigator on the board?

The rules don't say anything about ever trading your leader activation token with the others, so you probably shouldn't.


I agree, but the rules don't account for this at all.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jda1974 wrote:
I agree, but the rules don't account for this at all.


What I'm saying is that if nothing references the Leader until the next round, there is no issue. It would be very weird for the leadership token to permanently moved to the second investigator if and only if the Leader is referenced while defeated.
 
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John
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Clipper wrote:
jda1974 wrote:
I agree, but the rules don't account for this at all.


What I'm saying is that if nothing references the Leader until the next round, there is no issue. It would be very weird for the leadership token to permanently moved to the second investigator if and only if the Leader is referenced while defeated.


Right... I guess where I'm coming from is that the rules don't address this at all. Temporarily using the second player as the leader seems like a reasonable way to handle it. But drawing a different monster card also seems like a reasonable way to handle it. Spawning the monster next to the start space seems like a reasonable way to handle it. Spawning the monster next to the space where the (previous) lead investigator died seems like a reasonable way to handle it. So, where I'm scratching my head is that since the rules don't cover it, why isn't handing the leader token over to the next player permanently just as reasonable as any of those other suggestions?

(Not saying I will do it. Really just hoping we can get an official ruling from FFG )
 
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Will Shaw
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Maybe Golden Rule 003 applies in this case.
Golden Rule 003 wrote:
Any part of an effect that is impossible to resolve is ignored.
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John
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willshaw67 wrote:
Maybe Golden Rule 003 applies in this case.
Golden Rule 003 wrote:
Any part of an effect that is impossible to resolve is ignored.


So, the monster would not spawn? I was considering that. It seems very friendly for an Arkham Files game, though, LOL
 
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Pauli Vinni
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More likely... summon instead the Goo
 
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Graham Martin
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A few rule citations to point out a related rule issue:

First, Activation tokens are "tokens"...
Quote:
403 Activation Token
403.1 Activation tokens are used as a reminder of who
has taken their turn during the action phase and
encounter phase. An activation token has two sides:
an active side and an inactive side.
(It's called a "token" throughout the rules and I don't see anything that says it is treated differently than other tokens.)

Next, the Leader Token is an Activation token...
Quote:
403.4a The leader token is a unique activation token.
The investigator with the leader token is the
leader. (See rule 448, “Leader.”)
403.4b The leader token is used exactly like other
activation tokens.


Next, when you are defeated, you discard all of your tokens...
Quote:
444.6b When you are defeated, disengage all monsters,
exhaust them, discard all of your cards and
tokens, and return your investigator sheet and
investigator token to the box. Then place one
doom on the scenario sheet.
(My emphasis.)

Finally, you do not select a new activation token when you select a new investigator:
Quote:
444.7 Selecting a New Investigator
444.7a You take one of the investigator sheets that is not
being used by another player and has not been
defeated, devoured, or retired during this game.
Take the matching investigator token.
444.7b You gain the starting cards described on the back
of your next investigator sheet.
444.7c You place your investigator token on the starting
space indicated on the scenario sheet.


This means that the rules as written instruct you to discard the leader token when you are defeated, leaving no leader. This is an absurd result and we are safe to assume that, at a minimum, either a player should NOT discard their activation token upon defeat (I believe this is what FFG intended) or, at a bare minimum, a player must pick the leader token when selecting a new investigator if that token is available.

As pointed out above, this begs the question raised above of "what if mechanical text affects the leader?" Also, some steps in the game start with the leader and go around the table. Where do you start if there is no leader?

I point this out because in addition to addressing the main question, they should also edit 444.6b to exclude activation tokens from their list of things that should be discarded upon defeat. (Assuming that is their intent.)

I will submit that suggestion to them.

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Jorgen Peddersen
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OK, so we have an official ruling now. The leader has no space, but is thus equally distant to every space on the board. Thus, the answers to the OP's questions are:

1) If a monster says to "spawn at the street space nearest the leader" but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? Does the monster just not spawn? Do you keep drawing until you draw a spawn-able monster? Do you spawn in the street next to the next available investigator?
Every space is equidistant from the leader. The investigators choose which space the monster spawns in.

2) If a Headline or Archive card targets the leader, but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? (I may be mis-remembering, but I think there are both Headline and Archive cards that do this. Perhaps not.)
The same thing happens as headlines that target you while you are defeated. You have no space, so monsters or doom that spawns in your space won't spawn, you fail any test you would make and you cannot gain any conditions or assets.

3) If you are playing a solo/single-investigator game, and a game effect targets the leader while you are (temporarily) without a character due to being devoured, defeated, or retired, what happens?
This question is moot as the assumption that another investigator is treated as the leader was incorrect.
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John
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Clipper wrote:
OK, so we have an official ruling now. The leader has no space, but is thus equally distant to every space on the board. Thus, the answers to the OP's questions are:

1) If a monster says to "spawn at the street space nearest the leader" but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? Does the monster just not spawn? Do you keep drawing until you draw a spawn-able monster? Do you spawn in the street next to the next available investigator?
Every space is equidistant from the leader. The investigators choose which space the monster spawns in.

2) If a Headline or Archive card targets the leader, but there is no lead investigator in play, what happens? (I may be mis-remembering, but I think there are both Headline and Archive cards that do this. Perhaps not.)
The same thing happens as headlines that target you while you are defeated. You have no space, so monsters or doom that spawns in your space won't spawn, you fail any test you would make and you cannot gain any conditions or assets.

3) If you are playing a solo/single-investigator game, and a game effect targets the leader while you are (temporarily) without a character due to being devoured, defeated, or retired, what happens?
This question is moot as the assumption that another investigator is treated as the leader was incorrect.


Thanks for doing some mystery solving, our non-devoured lead investigator.

One other question that came up last night. At least one archive card rewards the leader with another card. I assume no one gets that card if the leader is temporarily out of the game?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jda1974 wrote:
One other question that came up last night. At least one archive card rewards the leader with another card. I assume no one gets that card if the leader is temporarily out of the game?

Correct, and that is covered by the official ruling.
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John
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Clipper wrote:
jda1974 wrote:
One other question that came up last night. At least one archive card rewards the leader with another card. I assume no one gets that card if the leader is temporarily out of the game?

Correct, and that is covered by the official ruling.


I know of one instance in the base game where an Archive card gives the lead investigator a card...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
... Lyta Chantler...


... and that card is not essential to playing the scenario. However, I could see a future scenario unintentionally including "the leader gains X" mechanic that is essential to the scenario. (Here I am, speculating about potential future errors!)

Thanks, again for getting an official ruling! That bit about monsters spawning anywhere in this instance is NOT something I was expecting.
 
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Pauli Vinni
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Well it Sounds like you Are in big trouble if you get leader devoured at bad time
Maybe new cards that Are essential in the future have some other wording for those very essential cards.
The lead investigator... if lead investigator is devoured then...
 
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Sam E
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Hannibal_pjv wrote:
Well it Sounds like you Are in big trouble if you get leader devoured at bad time
Maybe new cards that Are essential in the future have some other wording for those very essential cards.
The lead investigator... if lead investigator is devoured then...


I doubt we'll have irreplaceable cards that are plot essential since then a soon-defeated investigator would spoil the whole operation. Otherwise they'll have a consideration if that card leaves play.
 
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