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Subject: Republican strategy Redux: Brooks Bros. Riot rss

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mortego
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot

In a nutshell: The recount of Florida recount of 2000 was halted due to this event by Republican staffers.


I have a sneaky suspicion that this may be in the game plan for the Republicans for this recount since it worked before.
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Pontifex Maximus
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot

In a nutshell: The recount of Florida recount of 2000 was halted due to this event by Republican staffers.


I have a sneaky suspicion that this may be in the game plan for the Republicans for this recount since it worked before.


And what a surprise. Roger Stone is at the top of the list of participants. Will wonders never cease.
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Ken
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Just as a data point - you do realize that researchers have actually used FOIA to examine the ballots from the 2000 election and that you could have recounted 1,000 times and George W. Bush would have actually won the state each time, right?

Florida has some counties that appear to be completely inept at actually managing the election process. Both Broward and Palm Beach counties have shown this repeatedly. But I've yet to read that even this has resulted in a single election result that they've reported being wrong.
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mortego
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Oh, so there was no need for the Brooks Bros. Riot? Stupid republicans...
shake
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Ken
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Oh, so there was no need for the Brooks Bros. Riot? Stupid republicans...
shake


You could also argue that ultimately, there wasn't a need for any of the lawsuits that Gore filed, so I don't see the point of this particular comment. Recounts just about never alter the results of an election in the US. The odds that either Nelson or Scott win in Florida are just about zero, particularly due to the size of the margins in play.

Eliminating the steps taken to reduce the amount of actual voting is a much better idea.
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Oh, so there was no need for the Brooks Bros. Riot? Stupid republicans...
shake


The rather important point is that they thought that the count would have changed the outcome so with that in mind they moved to prevent the total recount.

Preventing every vote being counted is rather a bad habit to get into
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mortego
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Kumitedad wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
Oh, so there was no need for the Brooks Bros. Riot? Stupid republicans...
shake


The rather important point is that they thought that the count would have changed the outcome so with that in mind they moved to prevent the total recount.

Preventing every vote being counted is rather a bad habit to get into


Agreed.
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Ken
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
Oh, so there was no need for the Brooks Bros. Riot? Stupid republicans...
shake


The rather important point is that they thought that the count would have changed the outcome so with that in mind they moved to prevent the total recount.

Preventing every vote being counted is rather a bad habit to get into


Agreed.


And Gore's campaign didn't do the same thing, particularly for ballots cast by overseas military. Oh, wait. They did.

Neither party's hands were clean in 2000.
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Daniel Kearns
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Note, Florida wouldn't have mattered if Gore had won his home state of Tennessee.
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Ken
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dkearns wrote:
Note, Florida wouldn't have mattered if Gore had won his home state of Tennessee.


Or Ohio. Or flipping Nevada. Or West Virginia.

Gore ran a thoroughly horrid campaign. Worse than Dukakis, if you ask me. And that's saying something.
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Mike Stiles
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It's amazing how long "Cheat even if you're going to win" has been the GOP mantra though.
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perfalbion wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Note, Florida wouldn't have mattered if Gore had won his home state of Tennessee.


Or Ohio. Or flipping Nevada. Or West Virginia.

Gore ran a thoroughly horrid campaign. Worse than Dukakis, if you ask me. And that's saying something.


Gore, like Carter, had to suffer massive political trauma in order to get comfortable with themselves. Maybe Dukakis loosened up as well? I don't know, haven't seen or heard of him since '88
 
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mortego
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windsagio wrote:
It's amazing how long "Cheat even if you're going to win" has been the GOP mantra though.


The Democrats have been really good at this for at least as long, too. The only reason that they've deemphasized it is the way that demographics favor them these days. Let those change and what do you want to bet that the graveyards in Cook County start voting again?
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Ken
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aesthetocyst wrote:
Gore, like Carter, had to suffer massive political trauma in order to get comfortable with themselves. Maybe Dukakis loosened up as well? I don't know, haven't seen or heard of him since '88


He largely dropped out of the public eye on purpose. He became a college professor and served on the board of Amtrak. His most notable public achievement that I can recall is endorsing Elizabeth Warren.
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Bern Harkins
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perfalbion wrote:

Neither party's hands were clean in 2000.


No, neither party's hands were competely clean. But there's a big difference between filing dubious court motions and having Roger Stone launch a scheme where a couple of dozen republican staffers, pretending to be Floridian, stormed the counting center. The banged on the windows, shouted, banged on the walls... the atmosphere of threat created caused the Supreme Court to enter the fray. This is incorrect. Sorry. BH


I don't understand how you can rate a conspiracy to obstruct the vote count as unimportant, unless it is successful. Stone's duplicitous fraud should have been punished, and we should certainly remember it NOW.

(BTW, that study you cite did not adress the thousands of votes for Pat Buchanan caused by the Butterfly Ballot. It was clearly the intent of the majority of Florida's voters to elect Mr. Al "Yes, Global Warming is Real" Gore. Bush wins a recount, yes... but he only wins on the backs of thousands of voters who were tripped up by the ballot, and their vote effectively uncounted. There's no remedy for it, Bush won. But there's little grounds for smugness.)
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Mike Stiles
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What, you're saying they're not all the same?!

Heresy!
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Ken
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Radulla wrote:
I don't understand how you can rate a conspiracy to obstruct the vote count as unimportant...


I don't see that the means of obstructing the vote count particularly matters. The goal was to keep some votes from being counted. I really don't care if that was because of a staged protest or people in suits arriving in court. And it's worth keeping in mind that some Florida elections in 1998 were considered to be heavily tainted by questionable vote counting decisions which benefited Democratic candidates, most notably the Miami Mayor's race.

BTW - your comment that the Brooks Brothers Riot caused the Supreme Court to get involved is simply wrong. The Florida Supreme Court issued its first ruling five days before it happened and even issued another ruling the day before. The US Supreme Court didn't get involved until over two weeks later. The Florida Supreme Court just about ensured the latter happened - it occasionally ruled that counting of these ballots should stop, but those ballots should continue.

The entire Florida mess of 2000 should be viewed as "a pox on both houses." Both parties were clearly focused on winning over accuracy.
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Ken
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windsagio wrote:
What, you're saying they're not all the same?!

Heresy!


Wait, what? It's OK to interfere with elections so long as we do it nicely?

Seriously?
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mortego
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...but not the same as what could go on now?
 
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Mike Stiles
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perfalbion wrote:
windsagio wrote:
What, you're saying they're not all the same?!

Heresy!


Wait, what? It's OK to interfere with elections so long as we do it nicely?

Seriously?


Well no, just a reaction to the "Well, actually, everybody does it!"

Maybe I'm not being fair to you, but that's baby's first Internet Conservative deflection, and the natural response is to react to it as such.
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Ken
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
...but not the same as what could go on now?


What does this mean? Seriously, I've no idea what you're trying to say.

The Republicans have engaged in wide-spread voter suppression over the past decade and we should definitely call them on that and do something about it. Once the votes have actually been cast, the Democrats play exactly the same games that the Republicans do if they think they have a chance of flipping the result. In this election, the odds of flipping either race in Florida is so slim that they'd be idiots to do so. If the margin were 1,000 instead of 10,000+, I guarantee you they'd be doing the same things.
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Bern Harkins
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perfalbion wrote:

BTW - your comment that the Brooks Brothers Riot caused the Supreme Court to get involved is simply wrong. The Florida Supreme Court issued its first ruling five days before it happened and even issued another ruling the day before. The US Supreme Court didn't get involved until over two weeks later. The Florida Supreme Court just about ensured the latter happened - it occasionally ruled that counting of these ballots should stop, but those ballots should continue.

The entire Florida mess of 2000 should be viewed as "a pox on both houses." Both parties were clearly focused on winning over accuracy.


Thank you for the correction; I should have looked that up. Strking that passage out...
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Ken
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windsagio wrote:
Well no, just a reaction to the "Well, actually, everybody does it!"

Maybe I'm not being fair to you, but that's baby's first Internet Conservative deflection, and the natural response is to react to it as such.


"Baby's first..."? Seriously, are you looking for a "fuck you" response?

Either you're serious about election integrity or you aren't. Trying to pretend that one party has a monopoly on bullshit is disingenuous and wrong. The Democrats can be and have been as bad as the Republicans about counting votes when it suits them.
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mortego
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My original post was saying that maybe the Republicans will try to do what they did in 2000 and apply it to today's recount situation. The fact that Gore would've lost anyway wasn't the point but it got made to be the point.

Do I think the Democrats are angels? No way in hell which is why I'm no longer a registered Dem. I am a progressive-liberal without a party and I think the Republicans are crying foul because they could lose in Florida even if the odds are against the Democrat candidates.

"It should be noted..." phrases just throw me off. Sorry.
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