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Alex Kudlaienko
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Hi, i want to talk to you. Have you ever played such enermous and chunky game of Scythe? If the answer is yes, can you exactly tell is this game an euro or ameritrash? The answer is probably NO. It has a bit of everything combined into a mediocre boardgaming coctail(thats probably why its SO high on bgg rating). So can you say which elements from which part of gaming Scythe game and what you think of it as a game?
*Edit* Thanks for all the responses! This thread was made firstly for people to discuss this theme, i hope you found out something new while reading comments to this thread, thanks!
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Under the paving stones, the beach
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ThatGuyThatRoll wrote:
Hi, i want to talk to you. Have you ever played such enermous and chunky game of Scythe? If the answer is yes, can you exactly tell is this game an euro or ameritrash? The answer is probably NO. It has a bit of everything combined into a mediocre boardgaming coctail(thats probably why its SO high on bgg rating). So can you say which elements from which part of gaming Scythe game and what you think of it as a game?


It's a Euro engine builder. Plastic mechs don't change that.

(And the reason it's so rated high on BGG is because it's a well made heavy Euro, which always do well on here.)
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Niko
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
ThatGuyThatRoll wrote:
Hi, i want to talk to you. Have you ever played such enermous and chunky game of Scythe? If the answer is yes, can you exactly tell is this game an euro or ameritrash? The answer is probably NO. It has a bit of everything combined into a mediocre boardgaming coctail(thats probably why its SO high on bgg rating). So can you say which elements from which part of gaming Scythe game and what you think of it as a game?


It's a Euro engine builder. Plastic mechs don't change that.

(And the reason it's so rated high on BGG is because it's a well made heavy Euro, which always do well on here.)
Jup, the only thing it got from AT is the looks.
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Jędrzej Jarocki
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Scythe is totally euro (with a little splash of direct conflict). If I had to give you an example of a truely hybrid game I would say Eclipse.
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Dave J
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Feels euro to me.

...Move a piece here, get goods, move back get goods, move back get points...

what are we playing again?
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BG.EXE
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I favor Euros, but I like pretty much all games.
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I thought this was almost the quintessential intro to Hybrid games. Not to say other games didn’t hybridize these concepts earlier, better, or more, but Scythe seems to be the most popular one that people are familiar with, and the one that brings people (especially new gamers) across the Euro/Thematic game gap.

Maybe just my perception though.
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Bryan
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I think the "euro" and "ameritrash" labels may have worked in the past, but the lines have become blurred enough that I think it's time to come up with a new classification system, or just give up on needing to assign everything a label and just roll with it.
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Under the paving stones, the beach
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I thought this was almost the quintessential intro to Hybrid games. Not to say other games didn’t hybridize these concepts earlier, better, or more, but Scythe seems to be the most popular one that people are familiar with, and the one that brings people (especially new gamers) across the Euro/Thematic game gap.

Maybe just my perception though.


Designwise I'd say the mechanics are about 98% Euro (the other 2% being the small amount of direct conflict in the game).

But I'm of the view that most supposed "hybrids" are Euros with a bit more attention paid to theme.

Exceptions: Twilight Struggle (although that's more of a Waro), Sons of Anarchy, Chaos in the Old World, Robinson Crueso. After that I start to run out although I haven't played Eclipse.
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Kolby Reddish
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I thought this was almost the quintessential intro to Hybrid games. Not to say other games didn’t hybridize these concepts earlier, better, or more, but Scythe seems to be the most popular one that people are familiar with, and the one that brings people (especially new gamers) across the Euro/Thematic game gap.

Maybe just my perception though.


When I think of the first big Hybrid - I'm always going to think of Eclipse.
 
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Brendan Riley
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I agree with the general sentiment here. Usually the defining feature of an American-style game is "output randomness," in which you decide to do something (ATTACK THAT ZOMBIE) and then use randomness to determine how well you did it (ROLL THOSE DICE!).

Scythe has very little randomness, and is about crunchy choices and economy management. European-style game all the way.
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Chris Willett
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vir3ns wrote:
Scythe is totally euro (with a little splash of direct conflict). If I had to give you an example of a truely hybrid game I would say Eclipse.


This is the best answer here.

Scythe is fully Euro. Sure the warfare and mech look of the game are Ameritrashy, but that game is all about the Euro style of play. Scythe doesn't have much luck involved in it, which also puts it closer to Euro. The combat is determined without luck, and even the encounters all have a similar layout that you get to choose. Every card has a thing with a cost and a thing without one.


Eclipse is toeing the line though. The economic and action activations are Euro style, but the dice chucking and the military favoring are AT.
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ThatGuyThatRoll wrote:
can you exactly tell is this game an euro or ameritrash?


Why is the distinction so important to you?
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Scythe is a euro efficiency engine/resource management game. It has 0 elements of ameritrash (conflict is not exclusive to ameritrash games). Without high variability, player elimination, or the raw high emotions indicative of ameritrash games.

Eclipse is just space taxes, dice are also imo not enough to make something ameritrash. There is more to it than that.
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If it is a Euro it is just about the only one I like so far that has been made in the last 10 years. I never really thought of it as being either.
 
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It's a pretty pure Euro design. I'm hesitant to say, like others, that it lacks the randomness of Ameritrash games because I think it lacks the focus on drama, which I believe is an important distinction.

I don't think the encounter cards are swingy. I don't think the fighting is swingy. The highs and lows of the game are reeled in.

It's design principle is pretty clearly to be a challenging engine building game, with area majority scoring that forces you to spread out and address many areas of the game. The action cycling reinforces this. The game is for a particular market that enjoys an optimization puzzle. Even the fighting is incentivized by getting a star, and discouraged by losing position on a scoring multiplier track. That decision to fight doesn't feel dramatic. The result isn't even that dramatic because it's usually calculable.

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Raw emotions is an important point.
 
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
Designwise I'd say the mechanics are about 98% Euro (the other 2% being the small amount of direct conflict in the game).


To me, the direct conflict isn't even in the 2% bracket, but also firmly in the Euro game corner, because it can be exactly calculated. I can see that my opponent has for example 8 military strength. If I attack his lone mech with two of my mechs and play a 3 and a 5 card, I know that I have to put my dial to 6 to win the combat 100% of the time.

It's a Euro game that I initially mistook for an American style game due to the mechs.
 
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Brendan Riley
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badalchemy wrote:
Raw emotions is an important point.


I can see you've never had someone snake the worker spot you really needed in Agricola even though they didn't need it.

But seriously, I get what you mean about "drama," but I think the focus on drama has to be on the drama of the unknown, hence randomness.

The question for me, then, is whether something like A Game of Thrones or Diplomacy is a Euro game. Neither has randomness, but they have a lot of player interaction.
 
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Diplomacy is a Euro game, of course, just look at the map!

Bye
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wombat929 wrote:


I can see you've never had someone snake the worker spot you really needed in Agricola even though they didn't need it.

But seriously, I get what you mean about "drama," but I think the focus on drama has to be on the drama of the unknown, hence randomness.

The question for me, then, is whether something like A Game of Thrones or Diplomacy is a Euro game. Neither has randomness, but they have a lot of player interaction.


I'd say Game of Thrones is definitely AT - it concentrates on building narrative, tends to play long and has large amounts of backstabbing.

Diplomacy is a weird one, it's not really AT, a Euro or a wargame. It pretty much defines its own category.
 
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John Smith
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The combat's a bit tame in the game. It doesn't tend to be all out war, and more about the threat of war.

Scythe is in my top 10. The Fenris expansion takes it up to the top level for me.

I like that it plays fairly briskly, feels epic to me, like it has told a story, and the artwork is great. I love the strategy of the ending, where you have to spread your forces out. It is a bit gamey, in that you wouldn't spread at like that in real life where if there were another turn you'd lose a bunch of them. But it does make for some interesting decisions.
 
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To me, Scythe is the best example of what a hybrid between AT and Euro is. With the way combat works (hidden cards, bluffing) and random encounter draws, I could never put it alongside other euros.

Whoever says you can calculate how much power you need to spend on a combat, yes - you can calculate how much power you need to guarantee a win. Is it going to be the most efficient choice after dials and cards are revealed? Most of the time it won't. I'm not saying euro games cannot have combat, look at something like Manhattan Project. You know an outcome of a combat before you start it.

Don't get me wrong - I really like the game and it's easily in my top 20. It has a lot of euro game aspects that have already been mentioned above. But in my eyes it's not a pure euro and I don't think anyone could convince me otherwise I guess everyone might have very different luck/randomness thresholds for a euro game.
 
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