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Subject: Trainwrecks just aren't the same any more rss

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grant5 wrote:
Ozludo wrote:
Can you guys all get nastier, and start with the name-calling, dox threats and general douche-baggery? That way we can have a trainwreck in the trainwreck thread.
That is a terrible idea i will cut you.
That's the spirit!
 
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
Question. Has anybody calling for threads not to be moderated actually been on a no moderation board?

Yes, I have. And I'm not calling for no moderation, simply for some thought to go into what's being erased. In the case I mentioned, above, I was absolutely sure not to quote the "bad parts" of any post, only a very relevant question. Yet my answer was simply erased and replaced with, "Quoting removed post", which is stupid, irrelevant, and damaging to the information provided in the thread. A neutral, valid question with a neutral, valid answer should not be part of any "purges"!

Edit: The even greater irony is the moderator left the original "insult" post in place and intact. The OP has since edited it to remove most, but not all, the insulting bits. So it's still there, but the valid, neutral answer to his question is not! shake
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pdclose wrote:
Abiezer Coppe wrote:
Question. Has anybody calling for threads not to be moderated actually been on a no moderation board?

Yes, I have. And I'm not calling for no moderation, simply for some thought to go into what's being erased. In the case I mentioned, above, I was absolutely sure not to quote the "bad parts" of any post, only a very relevant question. Yet my answer was simply erased and replaced with, "Quoting removed post", which is stupid, irrelevant, and damaging to the information provided in the thread. A neutral, valid question with a neutral, valid answer should not be part of any "purges"!

Edit: The even greater irony is the moderator left the original "insult" post in place and intact. The OP has since edited it to remove most, but not all, the insulting bits. So it's still there, but the valid, neutral answer to his question is not! shake
This example sounds frustrating and silly, but it also sounds more like a case of a moderator simply erring rather than a logical consequence of the moderation policy, doesn't it?
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Diane Close
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russ wrote:
This example sounds frustrating and silly, but it also sounds more like a case of a moderator simply erring rather than a logical consequence of the moderation policy, doesn't it?

I'm not sure yet. I'm seeing it in other threads too, where good answers have been removed along with "offensive" content. It's early days, so yes there will likely be some adjustments along the way.

One of the problems is we don't know if it's humans making these decisions (about which content to remove) or machines. If it's just a person applying a computer-generated script, with something like 'encountered offensive posting by userX, remove all userX content in this thread going forward', then that explains why it's removing valid content too and seeming heavy-handed.

If it's a person making all the decisions about what content gets removed, then someone is just reacting (and then removing stuff wholesale) and not actually reading. That's just as bad in a moderator as it is in the posts they're moderating against.

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pdclose wrote:
russ wrote:
This example sounds frustrating and silly, but it also sounds more like a case of a moderator simply erring rather than a logical consequence of the moderation policy, doesn't it?

I'm not sure yet. I'm seeing it in other threads too, where good answers have been removed along with "offensive" content. It's early days, so yes there will likely be some adjustments along the way.

One of the problems is we don't know if it's humans making these decisions (about which content to remove) or machines. If it's just a person applying a computer-generated script, with something like 'encountered offensive posting by userX, remove all userX content in this thread going forward', then that explains why it's removing valid content too and seeming heavy-handed.

If it's a person making all the decisions about what content gets removed, then someone is just reacting (and then removing stuff wholesale) and not actually reading. That's just as bad in a moderator as it is in the posts they're moderating against.

it's humans using their own judgement based on the rules given to them. Deleted material is removed from the board but saved by the mods in case mistakes are made
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I got one ,too!
ME! Mister Nice Guy!

...Russian hackers!!!!

Robot threats are okay as long as
I don't lose my end of year huge Geekgold bonus
for being a wonderful and breath-taking participant.
 
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George Brinton wrote:
I got one ,too!
ME! Mister Nice Guy!

...Russian hackers!!!!

Robot threats are okay as long as
I don't lose my end of year huge Geekgold bonus
for being a wonderful and breath-taking participant.
Really on a roll, Jameorge.
 
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grant5 wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
I got one ,too!
ME! Mister Nice Guy!

...Russian hackers!!!!

Robot threats are okay as long as
I don't lose my end of year huge Geekgold bonus
for being a wonderful and breath-taking participant.
Really on a roll, Jameorge.

There are so many off-off-BGG theaters these days with round the clock, horrid performance artists.

Whenever I read their input, I hear Ono's Walking On Thin Ice as the soundtrack. It is so hard to believe that so many great musicians had to play on this crime against humanity. Double Fantasy, an album when pared down to 50% of the tracks, results in a work of art.

and since I luvs ya all so muches, you can listen too:



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Jacqland wrote:
veemonroe wrote:

Also, neo-Nazis can game too. You might not want them in your gaming group, but there’s no reason they can’t be in the hobby. There’s not even any reason why they can’t be in your gaming group provided they’re welcoming and respectful, treat everyone decently, and don’t discuss politics.

How about the fact they're neo-nazis and shouldn't be tolerated in any hobby?

I don't know - I happen to think there's value in acknowledging viewpoints that differ from my own. You can't change someone's mind if you won't listen and talk to them in the first place.

That's my complaint with the new moderation style - I don't approve of sexism/racism etc, but some folks are asking questions in good faith about real topics in a community where they feel comfortable. I'd rather have honest discussions with people (so long as the discussion is respectful) than have them silenced and marginalized.
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alenen wrote:
Jacqland wrote:
veemonroe wrote:

Also, neo-Nazis can game too. You might not want them in your gaming group, but there’s no reason they can’t be in the hobby. There’s not even any reason why they can’t be in your gaming group provided they’re welcoming and respectful, treat everyone decently, and don’t discuss politics.

How about the fact they're neo-nazis and shouldn't be tolerated in any hobby?

I don't know - I happen to think there's value in acknowledging viewpoints that differ from my own. You can't change someone's mind if you won't listen and talk to them in the first place.

That's my complaint with the new moderation style - I don't approve of sexism/racism etc, but some folks are asking questions in good faith about real topics in a community where they feel comfortable. I'd rather have honest discussions with people (so long as the discussion is respectful) than have them silenced and marginalized.
I just miss rubbernecking.
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alenen wrote:
Jacqland wrote:
veemonroe wrote:

Also, neo-Nazis can game too. You might not want them in your gaming group, but there’s no reason they can’t be in the hobby. There’s not even any reason why they can’t be in your gaming group provided they’re welcoming and respectful, treat everyone decently, and don’t discuss politics.

How about the fact they're neo-nazis and shouldn't be tolerated in any hobby?

I don't know - I happen to think there's value in acknowledging viewpoints that differ from my own. You can't change someone's mind if you won't listen and talk to them in the first place.

That's my complaint with the new moderation style - I don't approve of sexism/racism etc, but some folks are asking questions in good faith about real topics in a community where they feel comfortable. I'd rather have honest discussions with people (so long as the discussion is respectful) than have them silenced and marginalized.
Most of the actual honest questions and discussions are in the first few pages. After that it's two bitter sides, fully entrenched in their viewpoints, lobbing insults and sealions and names and derailments at each other.
 
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The trainwrecks have their own charm now.

Pete (wasn't prepared for entire pages of threads to be nuked)
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alenen wrote:
some folks are asking questions in good faith about real topics in a community where they feel comfortable. I'd rather have honest discussions with people (so long as the discussion is respectful) than have them silenced and marginalized.

How do you suggest admins distinguish 'good-faith' questions from identical-looking posts made by those seeking to dismiss that sexism/racism in gaming is a thing (withoug needing huge amounts of effort by the admins)?

Given that the vast majority of those types of post are not good-faith, and that even if asked in good faith they still provides a platform for views BGG does not care to endorse or host, it seems like the best solution for BGG is to delete them regardless.

(BTW, in case it wasn't obvious, this thread was started as a joke post, not a genuine complaint)
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col_w
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Serious question for Octavian/Aldie:

Given that 'trainwreck'/contentious threads tend to have long strings of deleted/hidden posts (pages of them in some cases); and that quotes of them are also removed...

Would it be better to completely hide them? I.e. not even leave the 'post removed' stubs? That would make some threads a lot more readable.

Maybe even have it as a preference in account options ('Show moderation notices' or something?).
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col_w wrote:
alenen wrote:
some folks are asking questions in good faith about real topics in a community where they feel comfortable. I'd rather have honest discussions with people (so long as the discussion is respectful) than have them silenced and marginalized.

How do you suggest admins distinguish 'good-faith' questions from identical-looking posts made by those seeking to dismiss that sexism/racism in gaming is a thing (withoug needing huge amounts of effort by the admins)?

Given that the vast majority of those types of post are not good-faith, and that even if asked in good faith they still provides a platform for views BGG does not care to endorse or host, it seems like the best solution for BGG is to delete them regardless.

(BTW, in case it wasn't obvious, this thread was started as a joke post, not a genuine complaint)

There is nothing clever about derailing comments. You see two, you have seen enough.

Like a train whistle, it is an obvious herald of Blood on The Tracks.

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col_w wrote:
Serious question for Octavian/Aldie:

Given that 'trainwreck'/contentious threads tend to have long strings of deleted/hidden posts (pages of them in some cases); and that quotes of them are also removed...

Would it be better to completely hide them? I.e. not even leave the 'post removed' stubs? That would make some threads a lot more readable.

Maybe even have it as a preference in account options ('Show moderation notices' or something?).

The extinguished pile of DEL'd posts is a nice message to the instigators that not only has their shit been wiped, but anyone with institutional memory has a nice reference to the act. It makes that person more likely to get corrected sooner by the masses - remember moderation is only triggered by tagging the offender as mods can't be everywhere at once. The goal of a bomb thrower is to see things burn, making them feel all useful and respected (by those that agree with the dribble). When their is no burning remnants, it is a testament to their failure on so, so many levels.

I can think of one BGGer who recently got the boot from RSP, wandered into GenPop and started to continue their routine. Their posts got derezzed and I'm assuming they got some form of suspension.

And if they are consistent, they will just start posting with another sock account, which just adds more fingerprint scans into their dossier, pushing their whole enterprise into Permaban status. This is the unfortunate, but necessary, cycle that continues. In the end, this form of moderation is a good effort to rid the BGG community of what has been a chronic problem.



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The one thing I do wish is that you could see which removed posts were yours. And ideally, if you could still see what you wrote. They could still be stubs to everyone else.

But when an entire page of posts is removed, unless you happen to remember if and what you posted, you might not even be able to tell something you wrote was removed, or be able to remember what you wrote that might have been objectionable.
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Thunkd wrote:
The one thing I do wish is that you could see which removed posts were yours. And ideally, if you could still see what you wrote. They could still be stubs to everyone else.
As someone who recently had a (totally harmless) post removed for the first time, you can find removed posts by My Geek —> Profile —> Contributions —> Forum Replies et al —> clicking the specific contribution. No ability to retrieve content, however.
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JoshBot wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
The one thing I do wish is that you could see which removed posts were yours. And ideally, if you could still see what you wrote. They could still be stubs to everyone else.
As someone who recently had a (totally harmless) post removed for the first time, you can find removed posts by My Geek —> Profile —> Contributions —> Forum Replies et al —> clicking the specific contribution. No ability to retrieve content, however.
So I went and did that. It’s painful. First off, I post a lot and the specific thread I was curious about was mixed in with a lot of other responses to other threads. And I posted many times in the specific thread... so I had to try and click through a bunch of responses I had made before I found one that took me to a removed post. I’m not going to do that every time I see some posts have been removed in a thread.
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I write jokes for a living, I sit at my hotel at night, I think of something that's funny, then I go get a pen and I write it down. Or if the pen is too far away, I have to convince myself that what I thought of ain't funny.

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Thunkd wrote:
JoshBot wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
The one thing I do wish is that you could see which removed posts were yours. And ideally, if you could still see what you wrote. They could still be stubs to everyone else.
As someone who recently had a (totally harmless) post removed for the first time, you can find removed posts by My Geek —> Profile —> Contributions —> Forum Replies et al —> clicking the specific contribution. No ability to retrieve content, however.
So I went and did that. It’s painful. First off, I post a lot and the specific thread I was curious about was mixed in with a lot of other responses to other threads. And I posted many times in the specific thread... so I had to try and click through a bunch of responses I had made before I found one that took me to a removed post. I’m not going to do that every time I see some posts have been removed in a thread.
I had great faith that you would be able to complain about what I had discovered. So, thank you.
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plezercruz wrote:
For whatever my opinion is worth, I thought that the previous way of moderating this site was the model for all sites to follow.

For years I actually referenced BGG's moderation policy on other forums as a model for preventing a forum from being consumed in culture wars: punt political content to an unmoderated sub-forum where culture warriors can duke it out to their hearts' desires.

It's really too bad that BGG will likely follow the path of other geek sites: a couple years as an increasingly toxic battleground, followed by a series of mass purges and departures, and eventual stabilization as an ideologically-stamped rump site.
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Rob Doupe wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
For whatever my opinion is worth, I thought that the previous way of moderating this site was the model for all sites to follow.

For years I actually referenced BGG's moderation policy on other forums as a model for preventing a forum from being consumed in culture wars: punt political content to an unmoderated sub-forum where culture warriors can duke it out to their hearts' desires.

It's really too bad that BGG will likely follow the path of other geek sites: a couple years as an increasingly toxic battleground, followed by a series of mass purges and departures, and eventual stabilization as an ideologically-stamped rump site.

If it stays on this current course, that will be a good thing.

Unless one subscribes to the Sky Ist Falling routine?

Heard the same shit about the wargame subforum during the mass exodus. Funny thing is that the resulting product is much more palatable and enjoyable since most of the incendiaries have been disarmed or buried.

Oh, but the world was supposed to collapse when the comments and commentators got "de-free-speeched". Yeah... didn't happen there, isn't going to happen on BGG as a whole. It will just be a better site.

By all means, please go to the sites that offer the unbounded freedom you seek. If you can find any that have a pulse.



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darthhugo wrote:

Heard the same shit about the wargame subforum during the mass exodus. Funny thing is that the resulting product is much more palatable and enjoyable since most of the incendiaries have been disarmed or buried.

Oh, but the world was supposed to collapse when the comments and commentators got "de-free-speeched". Yeah... didn't happen there, isn't going to happen on BGG as a whole. It will just be a better site.

By all means, please go to the sites that offer the unbounded freedom you seek. If you can find any that have a pulse.


Read my post again. I preferred the approach where all incendiaries were punted to RSP, instead of the new one where shit-posting zealots are tolerated so long as they have the correct ideology.
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Rob Doupe wrote:
darthhugo wrote:

Heard the same shit about the wargame subforum during the mass exodus. Funny thing is that the resulting product is much more palatable and enjoyable since most of the incendiaries have been disarmed or buried.

Oh, but the world was supposed to collapse when the comments and commentators got "de-free-speeched". Yeah... didn't happen there, isn't going to happen on BGG as a whole. It will just be a better site.

By all means, please go to the sites that offer the unbounded freedom you seek. If you can find any that have a pulse.


Read my post again. I preferred the approach where all incendiaries were punted to RSP, instead of the new one where shit-posting zealots are tolerated so long as they have the correct ideology.
as has been stated many times, the old method allowed the status quo to reign unchallenged since any attempt to challenge it could be easily derailed and/or sent to RSP where no one cared. Any discussions about improving the sites representation of women and minorities ended in thread locks.

The new system, the system the vast majority of moderated communities employ, prevents derailment and allows discussions to happen. The "correct ideology" you speak of, is the ideology where everyone, not just straight, while cis males, have an equal voice and their concerns aren't dismissed out-of-hand. Sorry for your loss. Must be tough not being able to avoid discussions that point out the sexism, racism and homophobia that exists in the world. Was so much better when those people were over there---> and not bothering people, huh?
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