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Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarter or Retail? rss

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Jason
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DanKD wrote:
Montag451 wrote:
DanKD wrote:
[Tainted Grail: The Fall of Avalon] is going to have well over 1000 cards with 1000 unique pieces of art. Yes, in retail it would be broken down into smaller packages, so the entry cost would be less, but you'd end up paying a lot more for the content in total.

That's exactly it. The barrier to entry would be WAY less, making it easier to jump in. That's how retail works. And over time, good games make more money at retail and sell a lot more copies.

Hit games make more money perhaps, but the vast majority of games, even good ones, quickly die out as even newer good games are released. There is very very little chance this game makes as much money in the next 10 years if released to retail as it will make in this kickstarter.


[Shifting a conversation from another thread to this forum.]
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James Mathe
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As a publisher / industry person...

There is some truth to the statement that many games will make as much (even more) money at Kickstarter then retailer sales. That's cause the market is flooded with games and retail can't buy them all or deep enough. It's also become very very hard to get your game into distribution these days and retailers rarely buy direct.

As such, KS games as a business plan just promotes this continued behavior as you can only cash in once per game or expansion and then have slower direct sales on Amazon/Ebay, conventions, and your own website later.

So from a publisher's POV it may just be an OR these days. But many decent games will eventually get a reprint and notice to be put into retail channels. Maybe 10% or so of those games from KS that made it to distribution will actually then have a long tale of sales in retail. The majority though will sell 500-2000 units and be done.

James
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Dr. Dam
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What I'm trying to work out is if there is any real reason for me back now for exclusives (I know the cost will be cheaper overall).

Thoughts?
 
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RPGShop wrote:
As a publisher / industry person...

There is some truth to the statement that many games will make as much (even more) money at Kickstarter then retailer sales. That's cause the market is flooded with games and retail can't buy them all or deep enough. It's also become very very hard to get your game into distribution these days and retailers rarely buy direct.

As such, KS games as a business plan just promotes this continued behavior as you can only cash in once per game or expansion and then have slower direct sales on Amazon/Ebay, conventions, and your own website later.

So from a publisher's POV it may just be an OR these days. But many decent games will eventually get a reprint and notice to be put into retail channels. Maybe 10% or so of those games from KS that made it to distribution will actually then have a long tale of sales in retail. The majority though will sell 500-2000 units and be done.

James


That's interesting James. Is there a number (that if a KS were to sell that many) that would dissuade you from getting into your retail store?

For example take Gloomhaven (let's ignore the price point for a second). But it is already in the hands of 34K BGG Users and perhaps as many as 60K worldwide. would that kind of number make you think that stocking it is probably not worth it?
 
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Jim P
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Neil Thomson wrote:
What I'm trying to work out is if there is any real reason for me back now for exclusives (I know the cost will be cheaper overall).

Thoughts?


Which game are you talking about? different campaigns offer different exclusives - some are cosmetic, some are mechanical. Some games are 99%-certain to hit retail one day, others won't.
 
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James Mathe
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Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores. So no, there is no alarm unless a game DOESN'T sell well at all on KS. So if you can't sell at least 300 units of your game on KS there isn't much hope for your game in the long run. Many retailers used to be turned off by large sale volume on KS but they are coming around to realize the market is MUCH bigger than the alpha's on KS ... so yeah, even games that have sold huge on KS still have life in retail. Scythe and Gloomhaven have proven that by being in such demand they constantly sell out at retail even after the Kickstarters are over.

As for should you ever just wait for retail... well the answer there is kind of a personal one. If you look at Minion Games that I run, if people waited for retail (cause we rarely add anything more special then a promo card exclusive) then many of our games would NOT be of the quality they are. KS helps us gauge interest and fund the fancy bits upgrades and such -that we then share with all people. But if we didn't get that support up front we'd release a lesser quality (bits wise) game or not at all in some cases. So yeah, you could wait, but if you really want to see a game come out and with great bits, you should consider backing it anyway. You're helping the publisher make the game better (even if it's for everyone).

But in many other cases there are Publishers that go wild with KS editions or deluxe editions that cost a lot extra... if you're a collector or really love the said game, you back it.

So there is no straight answer, I think it comes down to how much you really want to support a given publisher/game. You cannot just think of it as "I could get it cheaper or same price later".

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RPGShop wrote:
Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores.
That doesn't match what I've been told by game store owners.
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Jim P
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RPGShop wrote:
even games that have sold huge on KS still have life in retail. Scythe and Gloomhaven have proven that by being in such demand they constantly sell out at retail even after the Kickstarters are over.



I work a lot of conventions for a games retailer - even at the Computer-Game/Comicon type events we shift A LOT of Scythe.

Gloomhaven less so - that 3-figure price tag is a big thing...
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Mightyjim wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
even games that have sold huge on KS still have life in retail. Scythe and Gloomhaven have proven that by being in such demand they constantly sell out at retail even after the Kickstarters are over.



I work a lot of conventions for a games retailer - even at the Computer-Game/Comicon type events we shift A LOT of Scythe.

Gloomhaven less so - that 3-figure price tag is a big thing...

Popular games are popular games and should sell well regardless of distribution channel.
Of course games with 3-figure price tags (Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death) as you mentioned will behave a bit differently as people are less likely to buy them impulsively and prefer to do their homework and order online where cheapest.
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Jason Monroe
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jhaelen wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores.
That doesn't match what I've been told by game store owners.


I've heard similar from a game store owner but of course it varies on the games.

I think Gloomhaven, Scythe, and I'm sure a handful of others are exceptions.

The owner's primary issue with Kickstarter was for many games their hotness fades quick so in cases where backers are receiving their copy early before retail, often by the time the retailer could get it on the shelves, many gamers had already moved on to whatever the hotness is X months later.

That also says something about the hobby itself. Sure they are games with strong staying power but with so many games coming out (retail and KS), it's hard for many games to hit the table with regularity - again, I know there will be exceptions.

I mentioned to the game store owner that you may have a number of potential backers who won't back if it hits retail at the same time backers are getting their copy - that's probably why (in part) a lot of KS campaigns try to offer content in some form (promo, upgrade bits, etc) in KS copies that won't come in retail copies. Of course that was also an issue the owner had.

I see both sides though.
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James Mathe
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jhaelen wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores.
That doesn't match what I've been told by game store owners.


As I said, stores are really against the whole KS thing cause it leaves them out. They will use that as an excuse to not buy something - but it's not true. Smart store owners will make money on any game. I owned 3 stores and have talked with dozens that confirm that sales are just fine on decent games if they would have sold anyway without KS.
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Jason
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RPGShop wrote:
jhaelen wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores.
That doesn't match what I've been told by game store owners.
As I said, stores are really against the whole KS thing cause it leaves them out. They will use that as an excuse to not buy something - but it's not true. Smart store owners will make money on any game. I owned 3 stores and have talked with dozens that confirm that sales are just fine on decent games if they would have sold anyway without KS.
Just curious, does the game getting reprints via Kickstarter affect this? For example, does it make sense to carry something like Cthulhu Wars?
 
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James Mathe
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VaultBoy wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
jhaelen wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
Games that sell well on KS will sell well in stores.
That doesn't match what I've been told by game store owners.
As I said, stores are really against the whole KS thing cause it leaves them out. They will use that as an excuse to not buy something - but it's not true. Smart store owners will make money on any game. I owned 3 stores and have talked with dozens that confirm that sales are just fine on decent games if they would have sold anyway without KS.
Just curious, does the game getting reprints via Kickstarter affect this? For example, does it make sense to carry something like Cthulhu Wars?


Depends on how it's done and the game and all that... Retailers will complain a lot and some will pass / boycott, but the majority will sell anything that will sell. For example, Gloomhaven came back for another print and did so at a super cheap rate, yet even though all the retailers complained, they still sold a shit ton in distribution to retailers after the fact anyway.

There are best practices, sure, but in the end people still go where the money is. So do you have the draw and power to buck the system? Probably not. But some do.
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Oscar Gallo
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Yeah, depends on the categorisation of store I imagine.
Kickstarter has a different kind of demographic than the standard store. But not compared to a FLGS
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Bryan
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I prefer retail or to Kickstart a second printing. I feel like Kickstarters become beta testers for the most part. Revisions will be made for retail or the second printing.
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Jason
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usfbrown wrote:
I prefer retail or to Kickstart a second printing. I feel like Kickstarters become beta testers for the most part. Revisions will be made for retail or the second printing.

I'm not sure that's a KS only issue. There are a lot of traditionally published games that have more than enough errata to warrant revised edition. There are also a lot of KS games that subsequent printings are the same as the first printing.
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