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Subject: Two Questions: rss

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Massimiliano della Rovere
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1) Exactly, what do I need from the following link to expand AoM to a 6 player game?
http://www.eaglegames.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY...
(both "6 Player Expansion Pack" and "Game boards Set of 3"?)

2) I see a lot of articles on how to speed up the fights with alternative combat system, but (shame on me) I can't understand which alternative combat system seems to be the fastest *and* with percentages closest to the original game.

thank you!
 
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D. Quinn Nix
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Re:Two Questions:
I think what you need is the "6 player expansion pack", which can be found here...

http://www.eaglegames.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD...

IMHO, $15 plus S&H is a lot to play for just 27 wooden cubes, and handful of cardboard resource tiles, and a copy of the player's reference sheet. Usually, you can find games for sale on the Internet at 20% or more off the MSRP. But I don't know if there's anywhere else on the Internet, other than Eagle Games itself, to order this expansion pack from.
 
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D. Quinn Nix
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Re:Two Questions:
To answer your second question...

I've done a lot of research about this, both here and on other websites, and it appears there are two alternative combat methods that are the most popular

#1. The "5 or 6" method. When rolling the d6's, instead of a "6" being a win, a "5" or a "6" is a win. Supposingly, this alternative method has gotten the game designer's seal of approval, and may even make it into the game's 2nd edition.

This method tends to favor the unit with the higher number of dice a little more than the original method does, and this is considered to be this method's most desirable gain over the original.

This method speeds up combat only slightly.

#2. The "2d6" method. Instead of rolling large numbers of d6's, only 2d6 is rolled. The number of dice for a unit instead becomes a modifier for the 2d6 roll, and the unit with the higher roll wins.

With this method, combat is greatly sped up. Not only that, but many players find it much less cumbersome, not having to roll all those great handfuls of dice.

However, with this method, the probabilities for a given unit to win/lose against another do not quite match those of the original method (though they're pretty close), and ties are a little less frequent.

This method tends to favor the unit with higher modifier more than the original method does.

Because ties are so much less frequent, some players say that when rolling for a medusa or for a bezerk huskarl, that doubles (two "3"s, two "5"s, etc.) on that unit's 2d6 roll activate that unit's exception. This means that, if that unit rolls a double, that a medusa wins the combat and a bezerk huskarl loses.

Myself, I prefer this latter method because I greatly dislike players having to roll great handfuls of dice, again and again, and again and again... In this regard, Age of Mythology, using the original combat method, or even the "5 or 6" alternative combat method, is even worse than Risk (or the many Risk variant's).
 
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Matthew M
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Re:Two Questions:
Cynosure (#36961),

I wouldn't say that the 2d6 method is "pretty close". The probability curves get much sharper much quicker, giving even a small numerical difference a huge advantage in a given contest. The 2d6 method will almost entirely remove the chances for an upset and makes units with large numbers (particularly the Greek Mythic Hero) unstoppable.

-MMM
 
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Matt Boehland
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Re:Two Questions:
About what he needs for a 6-player game:

Doesn't he need the 3 extra map boards too? IIRC, there were only 3 boards included in the game, and it's not listed in the contents for the 6-player exapnsion pack.

Of course, I don't know, I never bought the 6-player thing ^^;.
 
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Matthew M
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Re:Two Questions:
Matt Boehland (#36990),

AoM comes with two boards for each culture, so he should be all set with those.

-MMM
 
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Massimiliano della Rovere
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Re:Two Questions:
Cynosure (#36959),
i have lots of cubes from other games...
but what can i do with tiles?
they must look all the same...
if i print "mine", the difference between the home-made and industry-printed one will be obvious...

any idea?
 
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Massimiliano della Rovere
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Re:Two Questions:
with the "5"-"6" dice system, if a unit scores only one 1,2,5 and the enemy scores one 3,1,6, is the outcome a tie?
 
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Matthew M
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Re:Two Questions:
masdero wrote:
with the "5"-"6" dice system, if a unit scores only one 1,2,5 and the enemy scores one 3,1,6, is the outcome a tie?


Yes. 5s and 6s are both equally counted as hits.

-MMM
 
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Massimiliano della Rovere
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Re:Two Questions:
Cynosure (#36959),
I asked Eaglegames about the actual content of the expansion and they told me that the picture on the site are as reference only; in fact the expansion has another full set of dice (30 of each color), and 2 full sheet of tiles (both resource and buildings).

Apart from Eaglegames I found only one site that sells the expansion: 7toys.de (go to 7toys.de site, click "componenten" and then "age of mythology"). Unfortunately the whole site is written in German language and I do not understand a word... only that the expansion there will cost 20 euros.
I wrote an them an email asking for shipping fees and payment method.
I'm really interested in expanding the game to (at least) 6 players.
 
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Re:Two Questions:
Octavian (#37006),
I'm reading there is an issue with Berserk Units & Medusa and the "5-6"d6 method.
I'm not sure if I understood it well:

with the "5-6"d6 method, berserk units do not lose ties and medusa does not win ties?
 
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Matthew M
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Re:Two Questions:
masdero wrote:
Octavian (#37006),
I'm reading there is an issue with Berserk Units & Medusa and the "5-6"d6 method.
I'm not sure if I understood it well:

with the "5-6"d6 method, berserk units do not lose ties and medusa does not win ties?


The issue is that with the 5s and 6s method (that, I should mention, has been officially adopted by Eagle Games as official) the berserking units become more powerful and the medusa is less powerful because ties occur less frequently.

However since the Medusa was seen as too strong and the berserking units too weak with the original rules this side-effect has been deemed a good thing.

-MMM
 
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D. Quinn Nix
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Re:Two Questions:
masdero wrote:I asked Eaglegames about the actual content of the expansion and they told me that the picture on the site are as reference only; in fact the expansion has another full set of dice (30 of each color), and 2 full sheet of tiles (both resource and buildings).

Hmmm. Really? I judged the contents of the expansion solely on the picture from the catelog at their website.

You said "dice". You meant resource cubes, right?
 
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D. Quinn Nix
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Re:Two Questions:
Octavian wrote:I wouldn't say that the 2d6 method is "pretty close". The probability curves get much sharper much quicker, giving even a small numerical difference a huge advantage in a given contest.

Perhaps I should've said "close enough"; that is, close enough for those players who prefer this method.

What exactly are the probabilities for using the "2d6" method, compared to the original method? I've seen spreadsheets posted here that show the probabilities for using the "5 or 6" method compared to the origianal method, but not for the "2d6" method.
 
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Re:Two Questions:
Cynosure (#37064),

I'm not going to do the full chart, but I'll give some examples.

First of all, the 2d6 method flattens the probability to straight difference between units. This means a 10 dice unit fighting a 6 dice unit has the same chance to win as a 7 dice vs 3 dice battle. For reference, using the 5s and 6s rule gives the first fight a 80% chance for the advantaged unit and the second fight an 87% chance.

So let's look at four dice difference using the 2d6 method. Already, if the person with the +4 bonus rolls a 9 or higher he wins automatically. Likewise if the disadvantaged unit rolls a 5 or lower. I'll break it down by number on the disadvantaged unit's chance of winning for each possible number rolled by the advantaged unit:

each column is:
advantaged unit's roll (% chance of roll) x disadvantaged unit's lowest need to win (% chance of roll) = percent chance of win

12 (02.78%) x -- (00.00%) = 00.00%
11 (05.56%) x -- (00.00%) = 00.00%
10 (08.33%) x -- (00.00%) = 00.00%
-9 (11.11%) x -- (00.00%) = 00.00%
-8 (13.89%) x -- (00.00%) = 00.00% (00.39% tie)
-7 (16.67%) x 12 (02.78%) = 00.46% (00.93% tie)
-6 (13.89%) x 11 (08.33%) = 01.16% (01.16% tie)
-5 (11.11%) x 10 (16.67%) = 01.85% (01.23% tie)
-4 (08.33%) x -9 (27.78%) = 02.31% (01.16% tie)
-3 (05.56%) x -8 (41.67%) = 02.32% (00.93% tie)
-2 (02.78%) x -7 (58.33%) = 01.62% (00.39% tie)

summing the last two columns gives us a 9.72% chance for the disadvantaged unit to win on a given roll, a 6.19% chance of a tie, and thus an 84.09% chance for the advantaged unit to win. Using the proportions between winning and losing to spread out the tied percentage gives us a total winning percentage of 10.44% vs 89.56%. Though this is similar to the 5s and 6s number for a 3 vs 7 bout, the difference is given more weight the more total dice each unit is due while maintaining that +4 difference. The 10 vs 6 dice example from above shows a near 10% swing when using the 2d6 method.

-MMM
 
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