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Subject: Player elimination rss

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Phil Woods
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I had my first game of Nemesis last night and really enjoyed the experience, but our group felt the player elimination was a bit arbitrary. We had to house rule out one of the player deaths.

I don't generally like house rules but we didn't want to ruin the game. We had a surprise intruder attack from a larva and then an event card which killed them. The player at the time was a full health and didn't have time to reach surgery in the player phase.

I don't mind player elimination in a game but for such a long game I would expect the deaths to be occurring in a controlled manor and towards the end rather than at any random point.

Were we playing the game wrong or is there an errata we should have been following?
 
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Jan Moetting
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It can happen, it is a tough game...
There is an optional rule of reviving characters, at least in full coop games. So why not houserule this?
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Will
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You might house rule that the event can't occur before the turn track hits 10 or some such. Shuffle the event back in to the deck if you draw it before then.
 
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Jaffa Brown
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jmoetting wrote:
...There is an optional rule of reviving characters, at least in full coop games....


Something I missed in the manual?
 
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Justin Strzyzewski
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PhilJWoods wrote:
I had my first game of Nemesis last night and really enjoyed the experience, but our group felt the player elimination was a bit arbitrary. We had to house rule out one of the player deaths.

I don't generally like house rules but we didn't want to ruin the game. We had a surprise intruder attack from a larva and then an event card which killed them. The player at the time was a full health and didn't have time to reach surgery in the player phase.

I don't mind player elimination in a game but for such a long game I would expect the deaths to be occurring in a controlled manor and towards the end rather than at any random point.

Were we playing the game wrong or is there an errata we should have been following?


Nemesis is merciless, the first couple games are learning experiences. I wouldn't be so fast to house rule anything. Next time they will be more cautious about having a spare card in their hand to prevent larva surprise. The game is more about the journey, yeah its great to win, but the best stories are the crazy ways you died, IMO. But once you get. A feel of the game and what events are in the game you will be better prepared to tey and mitigate very early deaths.
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Christopher Healey
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the early deaths add to the cinematic effects

randomness gives the play fear and therefore the edge and excitement

worked brilliantly when we played

Chris
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Jan Moetting
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jaffab wrote:
jmoetting wrote:
...There is an optional rule of reviving characters, at least in full coop games....


Something I missed in the manual?


Rulebook page 27
Revive: In this fully cooperative mode, the Emergency Room is equipped with a specialized AutoDoc device, allowing the crew to revive any near-death person. Whenever one of the Characters dies, another Character might pick up their Corpse token and carry it to the working Emergency Room. A player whose Corpse is in the Emergency Room places their Character miniature there at the start of the turn. All their Light Wounds are discarded, and all their Serious Wounds are Dressed. Important: the Emergency Room does not work if there's an Intruder or a Malfunction token in it.
 
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Joe Browes
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If you want player death to happen in a controlled manor I suggest Mansions of Madness: Second Edition .
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Kristian Thy
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ChrisHealey wrote:
randomness gives the play fear and therefore the edge and excitement


Right, but that excitement quickly dies down when you're dead and spectating your friends playing a game for 90 more minutes. zombie
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Lines J. Hutter
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turbothy wrote:
ChrisHealey wrote:
randomness gives the play fear and therefore the edge and excitement


Right, but that excitement quickly dies down when you're dead and spectating your friends playing a game for 90 more minutes. zombie

I agree.
Love the game (solo), but can‘t bring it to the table with my group because of that. Even with the revive rule, depending on the room arrangement, you might have to spend too many actions to get there, which might lose you the game. So for the other players it might come down to the choice, will I try to revive a character to prevent a player from being a spectator for the rest of the game, or will I try to focus on a win. The answer is obvious I guess...
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Esben Meulengracht Flachs
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ChrisHealey wrote:

randomness gives the play fear and therefore the edge and excitement
Chris


I won the game yesterday, by leaving in a pod in round three - spent the following almost 2 hours sleeping in a couch, while the other players seemed to have fun with the game.

It might be adding tension, but mostly it adds boredom.
 
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Paul Nugent
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I had the following idea (that doesn't involve controlling the Intruders) to deal with player elimination:

Drawing a new Character:
At the start of the next round; a killed player may draw a new character from the character pool (if possible). They wake up in the Hibernatorium, receive their starting items and choose an Objective as per normal rules of play at the beginning of the game.

This would allow a killed player to continue playing, but with the added disadvantage of having to start again from scratch. Plus having another character wake up from hibernation part way through the game isn't thematically out of the question.

There could be interesting scenarios where a player wakes up and the Hibernatorium is already on fire or an Intruder is lurking in the corner waiting to strike!
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Jan Moetting
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I really do like this idea of starting over again!

The other situation with a player winning very early could be a nuisance, too.

I don‘t think player elimination is bad in general. It can be thrilling to watch the game and it speeds up the lesser player play. If one plays the intruder the speed increases even more. And if you know that it is getting that hard you will try to keep everyone in the game
 
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Kristaps Auzans
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I doubt you play everything right.

You need to move at least 2 rooms, and be lucky to find pods, then they must be activated and you need to spend 2 cards to get in the pods.

All together at least 2+2+2 cards and extreme luck by ignoring extra adult attacks, possible malfunctions. Pod activation room must be in the game and it should be next to the pods.
 
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Frank Franco
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No. No no no no no!

Player elimination is the most important rule in this game.

This is a cinematic survival horror game. You died unfairly? That's what makes it a horror game!

If I'm going to just pop up with a new character in next turn then who cares if I'm going to die?

Sitting the game out for 2 hours - shit I don't want to die! Now I feal tension and trepidation. Also makes getting another player killed have far more weight.

Forget modern gaming bullshit tenants, it's as dumb and pointless as poker without the gambling ("But you can lose your money!" "No shit!"

Embrace player elimination and all the tension, pain and thrill in brings.
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Jan Moetting
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I agree. And everybody knows that it can happen from the beginning. You should not play if you do not agree with this option, i guess
 
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Will
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I'm a little amazed that half the people in this thread apparently have friends who are chomping at the bit to replay a game where they were eliminated in the third turn and sat around and watched for the next two hours because they hadn't memorized the event cards yet. That's not an example of a good use of theme or suspense...

When you've played enough times to internalize the rules and understand how the mechanics interact, how many cards to keep in your hand based on play state, etc., then you know enough to avoid early player elimination and the rules as written result in a fun play experience. The initial play experiences have to be enough fun to get people to that point. Figuring out a good set of house rules to avoid early game elimination with new players is definitely something on my to do list.
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Justin Strzyzewski
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I think your better off finding a way to keep them included and engaged in the game. Instead of house ruling a bunch of things and then people have to try and forget rules as they play more games.
 
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Will
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If it turns out to be a complicated list, I'd probably agree with you. At the moment, I think it's just pulling an event card or two for the first few turns, then shuffling then into the deck after people have gotten going.
 
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Michał Misztal
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PhilJWoods wrote:
We had a surprise intruder attack from a larva and then an event card which killed them. The player at the time was a full health and didn't have time to reach surgery in the player phase.
(...)
Were we playing the game wrong or is there an errata we should have been following?

Did the killed player have any cards on his hand when he was attacked by Larva? If no, you played it right. If he had one or more cards, you played wrong - the Larva's should not perform a Surprise Attack (the number on its token is 1).
There is one important thing to remember next time:
AN EMPTY HAND IS DANGEROUS, and the reason is exactly what you described. Having at least one card protects you from Larva'ssurprise attack, an also gives an opportunity to kill it before Intruder's Attack Phase.
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Kristian Thy
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meshiki wrote:
I doubt you play everything right.

You need to move at least 2 rooms, and be lucky to find pods, then they must be activated and you need to spend 2 cards to get in the pods.

All together at least 2+2+2 cards and extreme luck by ignoring extra adult attacks, possible malfunctions. Pod activation room must be in the game and it should be next to the pods.

We were two people exploring in the same direction, and as "luck" would have it the Hatch was next to the Hibernatorium, with both escape pod entry rooms right next to it.

I agree it's an unlikely scenario, but unlikely scenarios happen from time to time.
 
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Jeff Sylvester
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
No. No no no no no!

Player elimination is the most important rule in this game.

This is a cinematic survival horror game. You died unfairly? That's what makes it a horror game!

If I'm going to just pop up with a new character in next turn then who cares if I'm going to die?

Sitting the game out for 2 hours - shit I don't want to die! Now I feal tension and trepidation. Also makes getting another player killed have far more weight.

Forget modern gaming bullshit tenants, it's as dumb and pointless as poker without the gambling ("But you can lose your money!" "No shit!"

Embrace player elimination and all the tension, pain and thrill in brings.


All that "weight" doesn't matter when people won't pick the game up again because sitting around not being included for 2 hours is a waste of life. At that point, I'd probably just leave and go catch a movie or something.

The creators of this game have said that eliminations should happen near the end of the game, so potential early elimination is a problem and people who actually care about having fun (and more importantly, creating an environment in which the people they are hosting will have fun) will need to deal with it. At the very least, I'd want people to know all the situations up front that could cause this.

I don't know of anyone thinks that Arkham Horror: TCG lacks tension, pain, or thrills, and yet early player elimination is VERY rare in it. Potential early elimination is a game design concern an shouldn't something that happens very early on. Arkham Horror also has the advantage of eliminated players being invested in the drama/story/outcome, whereas after I'm eliminated in this game, I care little about what happens afterward.
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Frank Franco
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MostlyHarmlesss wrote:


All that "weight" doesn't matter when people won't pick the game up again because sitting around not being included for 2 hours is a waste of life.


No it's not. You watch the rest of the game play out. People watch other people do shit all the time. Sports and Poker make a fortune out of it.


Quote:
At that point, I'd probably just leave and go catch a movie or something.


Why, the movie is passive entertainment as well.

Quote:
The creators of this game have said that eliminations should happen near the end of the game, so potential early elimination is a problem and people who actually care about having fun (and more importantly, creating an environment in which the people they are hosting will have fun) will need to deal with it. At the very least, I'd want people to know all the situations up front that could cause this.


Why not just use common sense?
I've just been infested by an alien who is in my stomach...hmm, recon there is a chance it will burst out of me at some point like it did in the movie this game so heavily references???
Maybe I should focus on getting rid of it before the ticking timebomb goes off!
Who on earth can't work that out?

Quote:
I don't know of anyone thinks that Arkham Horror: TCG lacks tension, pain, or thrills, and yet early player elimination is VERY rare in it. Potential early elimination is a game design concern an shouldn't something that happens very early on. Arkham Horror also has the advantage of eliminated players being invested in the drama/story/outcome, whereas after I'm eliminated in this game, I care little about what happens afterward.


Why is there tension if you can't die? Is it one of those games where despite the fact you can't win after the first 30 mins it makes you play it out until the end? I hate those games.
 
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Jeff Sylvester
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If you haven’t played Arkham Horror The Card Game and you like tense horror games, you should try it. It’s a top 20 game here for a reason. And no, you are never playing out certain death for any longer than a turn or two. But there are quite a few instances where it can be touch and go for a LONG time. Generally when someon gets knocked out, the rest follow quickly. And I didn’t say you can’t die. You can, and sadisticly so. It’s just that it usually happens to the whole group.

As for watching other people play out a board game with an ending I’m not tied to, yeah, I’d rather watch a movie. Board games are for participation. Maybe you are different, but if so, you are atypical.

All that said, my fee playthroughs of his game have not generally had early knock outs, so that’s a good thing.
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Jeff Sylvester
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MostlyHarmlesss wrote:
If you haven’t played Arkham Horror The Card Game and you like tense horror games, you should try it. It’s a top 20 game here for a reason. And no, you are never playing out certain death for any longer than a turn or two. But there are quite a few instances where it can be touch and go for a LONG time. Generally when someon gets knocked out, the rest follow quickly. And I didn’t say you can’t die. You can, and sadisticly so. It’s just that it usually happens to the whole group or near the end.

As for watching other people play out a board game with an ending I’m not tied to, yeah, I’d rather watch a movie. Board games are for participation. Maybe you are different, but if so, you are atypical.

All that said, my fee playthroughs of his game have not generally had early knock outs, so that’s a good thing.
 
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