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Subject: NJ Gerrymandering rss

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Kelsey Rinella
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Just to head off later criticism from any conservatives we have left, I thought I’d mention that it sucks when Democrats do it, too. I support representative democracy, not this anti-representational crap. But the fact that a small number of blue states pursue gerrymandering doesn’t mean that both sides do it equally; obstacles to representation are far more widespread on the right, and conservatives who care about representative democracy still have a responsibility to speak out against it.
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MGK
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the NJ gerrymandering is horrifically bad, and the fact that it primarily comes from a small group of political dynasties trying to permanently enshrine themselves rather than an organized party effort is no real consolation; the Democrats should step on this hard
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Wendell
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NJ Dems should fucking well behave. It's wrong to gerrymander, and it's particularly stupid politically right now since it gives the GOP a shred of political cover for their ongoing crimes against democracy in Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina...
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Bill Cook
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NJ Gerrymandering is *awesome.* The more egregious the better.

If nothing else, it brings us one step closer to the Supremes shutting it down.
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Daniel Kearns
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Gerrymandering is an anathema to democracy and no one should be doing it.
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The Apostle Green
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Getting rid of district-based voting would help.
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Kelsey Rinella
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theapostlegreen wrote:
Getting rid of district-based voting would help.


Or larger, multi-member districts. But that’s the sort of thing that would require a lengthy, massive debate in order to get an amendment passed, and its plausible to me that eliminating districts wouldn’t be the ideal solution if we’re going that radical.
 
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Shawn Fox
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dkearns wrote:
Gerrymandering is an anathema to democracy and no one should be doing it.

Single member districts are anathema to democracy. The way to fix the gerrymandering problem isn't to make gerrymandering illegal, it is to make it ineffective.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Gerrymandering is an anathema to democracy and no one should be doing it.

Single member districts are anathema to democracy. The way to fix the gerrymandering problem isn't to make gerrymandering illegal, it is to make it ineffective.


Why not both?.gif
 
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Jorge Montero
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The craziest option, which would not help the no case, is to have districts, but elect proportionally by state. So if you have 10 districts, and a party wins the votes 60/40, you sort the districts, and the 6 representatives of the first party with the highest vote total go to congress, whether they won or not: most of the time, the losers that would still go to congress would have lost by the least.

This has its own set of problems: Good luck with an independent winning a district, and political families would gerrymander themselves to the safest seats anyway.
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Shawn Fox
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rinelk wrote:
sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Gerrymandering is an anathema to democracy and no one should be doing it.

Single member districts are anathema to democracy. The way to fix the gerrymandering problem isn't to make gerrymandering illegal, it is to make it ineffective.


Why not both?.gif

Certainly fixing gerrymandering would be good, but multi member districts are the only real solution. With a multi member district, gerrymandering has almost zero effect. Put a ton of Democrats in a single district and you just end up with 4 or 5 Democrats coming out of the multi member district. Split the district 55% R and 45% D and you get 2 Republicans, 2 Democrats, and one tossup.

The Fair Representation Act, which from what I understand is completely constitutional, would do just that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-change-how-we-e...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3057...

Ranked choice in single member districts is almost pointless. Ranked choice in multi member districts, however, works very well. The main point here is that the US Constitution specifically grants the power to the federal government to pass laws on how the states run elections for the House. It doesn't require a constitutional amendment, all it requires is passing a law.
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EMBison wrote:
NJ Gerrymandering is *awesome.* The more egregious the better.

If nothing else, it brings us one step closer to the Supremes shutting it down.


I wasn't aware Diana Ross had such power.
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Steve Vondra
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TheGrimReeple wrote:
EMBison wrote:
NJ Gerrymandering is *awesome.* The more egregious the better.

If nothing else, it brings us one step closer to the Supremes shutting it down.


I wasn't aware Diana Ross had such power.
You can't hurry law.
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mortego
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RE: The PA Gerrymandering thing earlier this year

An FB conservative friend of mine said that PA Dems were guilty of gerrymandering because the newly drawn lines were a benefit for them. I asked him how so and he said that they changed the lines from what the PA Repubs drew to a different configuration therefore CHANGING the outcome that was better for them.

I said you mean more fair for Dems? He said no, the lines that were changed were better for Repubs but now they aren't so that's Gerrymandering on the Dems part.

I stopped replying after that...
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James Myers
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
RE: The PA Gerrymandering thing earlier this year

An FB conservative friend of mine said that PA Dems were guilty of gerrymandering because the newly drawn lines were a benefit for them. I asked him how so and he said that they changed the lines from what the PA Repubs drew to a different configuration therefore CHANGING the outcome that was better for them.

I said you mean more fair for Dems? He said no, the lines that were changed were better for Repubs but now they aren't so that's Gerrymandering on the Dems part.

I stopped replying after that...


Braindead partisans suck.
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Trey Chambers
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EMBison wrote:
NJ Gerrymandering is *awesome.* The more egregious the better.

If nothing else, it brings us one step closer to the Supremes shutting it down.


Good point. The real solution might be for blue states to gerrymander just as hard so that there is bipartisan interest in getting rid of it once and for all. Maybe through constitutional amendment even.
 
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mortego
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Is there any kind of "good" argument for Gerrymandering in favor of Republicans?

I know it sounds bat-shit crazy but other than power-grab is there a reasonable argument to be made for it?
 
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Daniel Kearns
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Is there any kind of "good" argument for Gerrymandering in favor of Republicans?

As fewer people support their politics, it wouldn't be fair to them without it?
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mortego
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dkearns wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
Is there any kind of "good" argument for Gerrymandering in favor of Republicans?

As fewer people support their politics, it wouldn't be fair to them without it?


Yeah, my querry pretty much ends there...
 
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Wendell
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Is there any kind of "good" argument for Gerrymandering in favor of Republicans?

I know it sounds bat-shit crazy but other than power-grab is there a reasonable argument to be made for it?


If you sincerely believe Republicans and their policies are good, and Democrats and their policies are bad, then gerrymandering - only in favor of Republicans - is good.

Not MY THEORY - I'm nearly 180 degrees opposite on that. But A "good" argument, though you have to believe the premises...
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MGK
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so the New Jersey gerrymander is dead for now, and I want to note that the primary opposition to it came from Democrats and lefties even though it was "their side" poised to benefit

just to remember the next time someone pulls the both-sides canard out of their ass, is all
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mightygodking wrote:
so the New Jersey gerrymander is dead for now, and I want to note that the primary opposition to it came from Democrats and lefties even though it was "their side" poised to benefit

just to remember the next time someone pulls the both-sides canard out of their ass, is all


I wouldn't say the new plan was primarily opposed by democrats. It was pretty much universally opposed by republicans. The article is focusing on the relatively small number democrats who were opposing it because republicans opposition it was a given. The main argument of the democrats to oppose the plan is that it would be used as an example to legitimize republican gerrymandering in other states.
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