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Dinosaur Island: Totally Liquid» Forums » Rules

Subject: Mosasaurus and Kronosaurus threat rss

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Jacob Shoop
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In my copy the Mosasaurus and Kronosaurus recipe tiles both do not have a threat level. There is an example in the book that has pictures of both of these tiles ALSO without threat. Surely this must be an error. I have a feeling the example in the book was made using the same art assets that were printed and the fact that they didn't have a threat level was missed.


Or are these Dinos actually very cuddly and have zero threat after all?
 
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Ian Moss
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AluminiumOtter wrote:
In my copy the Mosasaurus and Kronosaurus recipe tiles both do not have a threat level. There is an example in the book that has pictures of both of these tiles ALSO without threat. Surely this must be an error. I have a feeling the example in the book was made using the same art assets that were printed and the fact that they didn't have a threat level was missed.


Or are these Dinos actually very cuddly and have zero threat after all?


Those both have zero threat. Since they are in tanks, it's harder for them to break out. That being said, some of the other marine creatures' tanks aren't nearly as well made...
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Naked Meeple
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The Kronosaurus is brutal.. 4 of those built are 40 points with zero threat. I dont see how thats not broken at all.
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Ottevaere Wouter
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Chigatterun wrote:
The Kronosaurus is brutal.. 4 of those built are 40 points with zero threat. I dont see how thats not broken at all.

Indeed: we had such a broken game... The Kronosaurus was the first water dino to appear, so first player took this one and built four animals forum 40 points without threat...
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Ola Andersson
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Yeah, the new dino recipes are very unbalanced, some are insanely good and some very bad. Look at this old recipe above and the new below, two more standard DNA for seven times the VP seems very strange.

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Ian Moss
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bobaflott wrote:
Yeah, the new dino recipes are very unbalanced, some are insanely good and some very bad. Look at this old recipe above and the new below, two more standard DNA for seven times the VP seems very strange.



So the reason that one is less good than a Large Carnivore is because it's a 2 Researcher. It's balanced against the Researcher level it requires, so it's just as good as any Small Carnivore. (less DNA cost that all Small Carnivores)
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Eric P
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It has the excitement of a large carnivore, the threat of a small carnivore, and the endgame score of an herbivore.


Sounds right for a Level-2 Scientist to me.

Would be a great pickup for someone who invested in attractions over security and needs excitement to fill seats on rides.
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Dave Chandler
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CFMoss wrote:
bobaflott wrote:
Yeah, the new dino recipes are very unbalanced, some are insanely good and some very bad. Look at this old recipe above and the new below, two more standard DNA for seven times the VP seems very strange.



So the reason that one is less good than a Large Carnivore is because it's a 2 Researcher. It's balanced against the Researcher level it requires, so it's just as good as any Small Carnivore. (less DNA cost that all Small Carnivores)


It's not really less DNA cost than other small carnivores. Yes small carnivores take 4 total DNA, but only 2 advanced, and 2 basic. This requires 3 advanced, which is arguably much more difficult to obtain than 2 basic and 2 advanced. Basic DNA is cheap and often available in large chunks off the DNA Dice.

So for what is at BEST a similar cost to small carnivores you get 3 fewer points due and +1 excitement.

I suspect the game developers GREATLY overvalue excitement and undervalue threat. Kronosaurus costs all of one more basic DNA than a large carnivore which is trivial. It is worth 10 points as opposed to 7, costs no threat and only loses 1 excitement in the process.

Managing threat is often the most difficult and costly aspect of the game. Requiring 0 threat is an insane bonus. To pair with a 10 point animal is broken.
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Naked Meeple
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djc6535 wrote:
CFMoss wrote:
bobaflott wrote:
Yeah, the new dino recipes are very unbalanced, some are insanely good and some very bad. Look at this old recipe above and the new below, two more standard DNA for seven times the VP seems very strange.



So the reason that one is less good than a Large Carnivore is because it's a 2 Researcher. It's balanced against the Researcher level it requires, so it's just as good as any Small Carnivore. (less DNA cost that all Small Carnivores)


It's not really less DNA cost than other small carnivores. Yes small carnivores take 4 total DNA, but only 2 advanced, and 2 basic. This requires 3 advanced, which is arguably much more difficult to obtain than 2 basic and 2 advanced. Basic DNA is cheap and often available in large chunks off the DNA Dice.

So for what is at BEST a similar cost to small carnivores you get 3 fewer points due and +1 excitement.

I suspect the game developers GREATLY overvalue excitement and undervalue threat. Kronosaurus costs all of one more basic DNA than a large carnivore which is trivial. It is worth 10 points as opposed to 7, costs no threat and only loses 1 excitement in the process.

Managing threat is often the most difficult and costly aspect of the game. Requiring 0 threat is an insane bonus. To pair with a 10 point animal is broken.


Someone detailed it in the water dinos thread the formula they use to balance dino stats. It was shown that they consider one basic DNA twice as cosstly as a single threat, and advanced DNA four times more. This is how we got those wacky water dinos with 5 threat and 0 VP to be considered “balanced”
 
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MURPHY
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Wout wrote:
Chigatterun wrote:
The Kronosaurus is brutal.. 4 of those built are 40 points with zero threat. I dont see how thats not broken at all.

Indeed: we had such a broken game... The Kronosaurus was the first water dino to appear, so first player took this one and built four animals forum 40 points without threat...


Agree we had a game the end score was:

110 (4 Kronosaurus, 89, 89, 86, 76...

The second place 89 and 76 were battling security all game and the exponential cost, trying to get specialist and lab upgrades while the 110 player stayed below 8 security, leveraging a mass of low threat moderate excitement complimentary species.

We plan to leave this dino out as it seems there is not a similar tactical counterbalance.
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Heath Washburn
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murphzone wrote:

We plan to leave this dino out as it seems there is not a similar tactical counterbalance.

Instead of removing it, you could just add one or two threat to its recipe.
 
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Paul Paella
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Have to agree with everything said here. We had another game with a dud water dino and no even considered buying it. It was horrible, something like 4 threat for 1 Excitement. We even added coins to it every turn to entice a buy.

Not sure what they were thinking here. These super water dinos makes the turn order "issues" even more extreme and they weren't well received to begin with.

EDIT: dude -> dud!
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Jacob Shoop
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heathbarATL wrote:
murphzone wrote:

We plan to leave this dino out as it seems there is not a similar tactical counterbalance.

Instead of removing it, you could just add one or two threat to its recipe.


That's what I plan to do. We only had 1 game with both Mosa and Krono but with zero threat we all felt they were too strong. We are going to give the Mosasaur 1 threat and the Kronosaur 2. It'll take a few games to see if that levels the two out a bit but I feel like the DNA cost and Excitment/VPs of both are ok if they had just some threat.

Ghorro wrote:
Have to agree with everything said here. We had another game with a dude water dino and no even considered buying it. It was horrible, something like 4 threat for 1 Excitement. We even added coins to it every turn to entice a buy.

Not sure what they were thinking here. These super water dinos makes the turn order "issues" even more extreme and they weren't well received to begin with.


To see more of the water dinos we discarded one every round that it wasn't bought.
 
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Nathan Andersen
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Played a game with a Kronosaurus last night. That dinosaur will either be coming out or getting the permanent marker treatment for some threat. It's horribly unbalanced.
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Paul Paella
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Not sure WTH they were thinking with the dino recipes. The main game recipes are beyond boring, mostly the same, and the water dinos are either not worth having in your park at all or beyond overpowered. Complete mess.
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Nicholas Dewald
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vivitribal wrote:
Played a game with a Kronosaurus last night. That dinosaur will either be coming out or getting the permanent marker treatment for some threat. It's horribly unbalanced.


Yeah played with this in my park. I feel like the designers just way overvalued DNA. I got 30 points with no threat increase.
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Nathan Warnock
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AluminiumOtter wrote:
That's what I plan to do. We only had 1 game with both Mosa and Krono but with zero threat we all felt they were too strong. We are going to give the Mosasaur 1 threat and the Kronosaur 2. It'll take a few games to see if that levels the two out a bit but I feel like the DNA cost and Excitment/VPs of both are ok if they had just some threat.


Well, what do we think? Is a threat of 1 for the Mosasaurus and 2 for the Kronosaurus enough? I would love to hear from anyone that has tried this to see if it seems balanced from a final scoring standpoint.
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Mark Ogilvie
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This all reminds me a bit of the alternate card sets for Chaos in the Old World's expansion. When it was first released there was a huge wave of negative attention drawn to the cards because they seemed woefully under or overpowered compared to the original game.

It took years for the community to largely settle on the fact that the cards ultimately were reasonably balanced, just in a new way that was not immediately obvious.

I'm not saying the same thing is happening here, but I'm eager to see how opinions on these dinos ultimately settle over the long run. I haven't even gotten to them yet, since I got the base game and the expansion at the same time, and wanted to get comfy with Dinosaur Island before getting into the weird stuff.
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Patrick G.
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BloodySloth wrote:
This all reminds me a bit of the alternate card sets for Chaos in the Old World's expansion. When it was first released there was a huge wave of negative attention drawn to the cards because they seemed woefully under or overpowered compared to the original game.

It took years for the community to largely settle on the fact that the cards ultimately were reasonably balanced, just in a new way that was not immediately obvious.

I'm not saying the same thing is happening here, but I'm eager to see how opinions on these dinos ultimately settle over the long run. I haven't even gotten to them yet, since I got the base game and the expansion at the same time, and wanted to get comfy with Dinosaur Island before getting into the weird stuff.

Heh.

I think the track records for the different development groups are a bit different but we can hope.
 
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Stefan Schiltz
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I just won a game with the Kronosaurus and really wish I could say I deserved the win... but I cannot

I did a bad job with the objectives I got 1 out of the 5 my opponents each got 4 objectives they also did better than me with the blue print. I was inefficient with my workers I got too many of them too fast and had nothing for them to do, I was building paddocks and not filling them right away and was often spending 3 workers to get 6 money because they could go nowhere else. I was also pulling triple the amount of hooligans my opponents were too.

I did well grabbing some big restaurants early and getting money to stay back in vps in order to be first player for awhile, but other than that I just did a good job at exploiting the broken water Dino. No threat and being worth ten points seems a bit ridiculous?

I also do not understand the meg and some of the other water Dino’s they seem soo underpowered, no points 6 threat and 5 excitement.... huh? Yeah I think threat was not taken seriously and excitement was valued to high when they tried to balance the water Dino’s ...

My score 137 vs 93, 61
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Heath Washburn
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sdschiltz wrote:

My score 137 vs 93, 61

Sorry I gotta call foul. Your opponents must have messed up some rules. I've never played a game with scores that widespread. Also, even if you scored 4 Kronos (40pts) you still would have won by 3 without them. So, apparently they didn't help you win at all. Fwiw, I think Krono does need 1 or 2 threat and Meg needs less.
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Stefan Schiltz
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Plus or minus 3 pts It was 127 93 and 61, it was there first time playing and 3rd place did not get the lab that allows you to double the points of an attraction. And on a long game getting the kronosaur 1st turn and not having to deal with threat is a huge advantage.
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