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KeyForge: Call of the Archons» Forums » Rules

Subject: Firespitter + Evasion Sigil rss

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Matthew S.
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Firespitter's ability says "before fight". Does this mean it occurs even if the fight fails to trigger because of Evasion Sigil?
 
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Per Franck
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Reading the card text on evasion sigil it seems like “exhaust with no effect” is the case.
 
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James
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They both happen “before fight” so I’d say this is another case of “the active player decides the order”.

Quote:
Evasion Sigil

Before a creature fights, discard the top card of its controller's deck. If the discarded card is of the active house, exhaust that creature with no effect.


Quote:
Firespitter

Before Fight: Deal 1 damage to each enemy creature.
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Danny Perello
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Before Fight abilities trigger before any damage is dealt by any creatures, but after the attacking creature exhausts. Evasion Sigil is checked when the fight is declared but before the attacking creature exhausts.

I think Evasion Sigil first, then, if the fight actually happens, Before Fight abilities, then the fight, then Fight abilities, etc.
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MGS
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We have had a big discussion about this before. Evasion Sigil vs. Before fight effects. There are 2 schools of thought. Some people think they happen at the same time and some people think that following the word as written, the Sigil should prevail. I think the former but anxiously wait a decision by FFG.
 
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Matthew S.
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Ronaldo wrote:
We have had a big discussion about this before. Evasion Sigil vs. Before fight effects. There are 2 schools of thought. Some people think they happen at the same time and some people think that following the word as written, the Sigil should prevail. I think the former but anxiously wait a decision by FFG.


I'm not sure where FFG posts official rulings; please copy it here when you see one. (I have both of them in the same deck, which is a strong deck even with the "Sigil first" interpretation, and even stronger if I get to choose.)
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Danny Perello
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Ronaldo wrote:
We have had a big discussion about this before. Evasion Sigil vs. Before fight effects. There are 2 schools of thought. Some people think they happen at the same time and some people think that following the word as written, the Sigil should prevail. I think the former but anxiously wait a decision by FFG.

I can certainly understand not being sure exactly what a card is supposed to do. There is no question the game is often less than clear and I've been quite surprised by some of the rulings, especially the ones that actually ignore what is written on the card, ignore the rules in the rulebook, and ultimately just make up rules outside of anything currently in print. However, unless this is another weird anomaly, why would you choose to ignore what appears to be very clear language on the card and in the rules?

I wouldn't presume to declare you're wrong, I'm just wondering why you think this is a case where the precise wording on the card should be ignored and the actual intent needs to be inferred?
 
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Matthew S.
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Relax wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
We have had a big discussion about this before. Evasion Sigil vs. Before fight effects. There are 2 schools of thought. Some people think they happen at the same time and some people think that following the word as written, the Sigil should prevail. I think the former but anxiously wait a decision by FFG.

I can certainly understand not being sure exactly what a card is supposed to do. There is no question the game is often less than clear and I've been quite surprised by some of the rulings, especially the ones that actually ignore what is written on the card, ignore the rules in the rulebook, and ultimately just make up rules outside of anything currently in print. However, unless this is another weird anomaly, why would you choose to ignore what appears to be very clear language on the card and in the rules?

I wouldn't presume to declare you're wrong, I'm just wondering why you think this is a case where the precise wording on the card should be ignored and the actual intent needs to be inferred?


You should probably conclude from the fact that many people disagree with your interpretation that the wording is not, in fact, precise, rather than that many people are just ignoring it.
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Danny Perello
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Prismattic wrote:
Relax wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
We have had a big discussion about this before. Evasion Sigil vs. Before fight effects. There are 2 schools of thought. Some people think they happen at the same time and some people think that following the word as written, the Sigil should prevail. I think the former but anxiously wait a decision by FFG.

I can certainly understand not being sure exactly what a card is supposed to do. There is no question the game is often less than clear and I've been quite surprised by some of the rulings, especially the ones that actually ignore what is written on the card, ignore the rules in the rulebook, and ultimately just make up rules outside of anything currently in print. However, unless this is another weird anomaly, why would you choose to ignore what appears to be very clear language on the card and in the rules?

I wouldn't presume to declare you're wrong, I'm just wondering why you think this is a case where the precise wording on the card should be ignored and the actual intent needs to be inferred?


You should probably conclude from the fact that many people disagree with your interpretation that the wording is not, in fact, precise, rather than that many people are just ignoring it.

Shit, sorry, I'm not trying to be an ass here. Seriously, I was just curious what made the wording seem less than precise.

Evasion Sigil says check, if house matches, exhaust and do nothing. Before Fight is said to happen after exhaustion but before damage is dealt. Evasion, before exhaustion, Before Fight, after exhaustion. This couldn't be clearer, to me, so I'm curious why you see it differently. Am I misreading the card? That's certainly possible. Is there some passage in the rules I'm missing? That's certainly possible too. I'm not saying I'm right because it's impossible to guess with this game. I'm just trying to understand your thinking here. What am I missing?
 
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Matthew S.
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"Exhaust and do nothing" could simply be interpreted as indicating that the creature exhausts, rather than nothing happens and the creature is free to try again. It's not necessarily an indication of the timing. The card literally starts with "Before a creature fights", which people are interpreting as analogous language to "Before Fight" (except that the Sigil itself does not fight, which is why the language is not exactly the same).
 
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Danny Perello
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Prismattic wrote:
"Exhaust and do nothing" could simply be interpreted as indicating that the creature exhausts, rather than nothing happens and the creature is free to try again. It's not necessarily an indication of the timing. The card literally starts with "Before a creature fights", which people are interpreting as analogous language to "Before Fight" (except that the Sigil itself does not fight, which is why the language is not exactly the same).

Okay, I think I understand.

But, Before Fight is very different than "Before a creature fights." (Welcome to KeyForge. )

BEFORE
If the word “before” is used in an ability (for example, “Before Reap:” or
“Before Fight:”), that ability resolves before resolving the game effect of
the reap or fight (but after the card exhausts, if exhausting is required to
use the card).

Before Fight abilities only happen after a creature exhausts. Evasion Sigil causes the creature to exhaust and do nothing else. Like I said it might be ruled that Before Fight abilities still fire when Evasion Sigil prevents the fight, but wow that will take some pretty imaginative word bending. That will mean that Evasion Sigil will need to pause mid execution, let Before Fight abilities resolve, then resume doing what it was doing. I didn't think card effects could be interrupted in that way in KeyForge, but I guess if they want to open that particular can of worms all we can do is go along for the ride.
 
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Danny Perello
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Ronaldo wrote:
@Relax: I read ad nauseum your point on the other thread and I thought it was far from convincing. I don’t think it is bad as a ruling. I think it is as good as the alternative. Unfortunately, you have convinced yourself and you have closed your mind for points that are at least as convincing as yours. In the process, your discourse is becoming pedantic what is quite sad since, in general, I enjoy your contributions to our discussions.

Well, thanks for that. I was genuinely asking you to explain to me where I was going wrong, and this is your response? I'm not convinced I'm right. Not even close. But every time I ask for new information I'm missing... Wow.
 
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Sam R
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There’s no “timing windows” that have been declared (yet) for the game.

And many people want to apply MTG mentality to the game (which has created a million arguments on these posts) much of the confusion with rulings has come about from many trying to apply MTGs stack resolution. Hopefully ffg will come out with official ruling and updates to the rulebook soon.

But as it stands right now, my understanding is that both are “before fight” which means the active player gets to decide.

But given the rulings that were given about resolution for other things triggering at the same time. I believe that if you were to resolve sigil first and got the “exhaust and do nothing” part of it t would cancel out the dealing damage before fight of the creature.
 
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Simon Taylor
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LateShacka wrote:
There’s no “timing windows” that have been declared (yet) for the game.

And many people want to apply MTG mentality to the game (which has created a million arguments on these posts) much of the confusion with rulings has come about from many trying to apply MTGs stack resolution. Hopefully ffg will come out with official ruling and updates to the rulebook soon.

But as it stands right now, my understanding is that both are “before fight” which means the active player gets to decide.

But given the rulings that were given about resolution for other things triggering at the same time. I believe that if you were to resolve sigil first and got the “exhaust and do nothing” part of it t would cancel out the dealing damage before fight of the creature.


Apart from Library access... Check the FAQ
 
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Danny Perello
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Something just occurred to me, and again I may be wrong, but let's see if it makes any sense.

In a classic, "Let's make this as obfuscated as possible," it seems that "fight" and "Fight" are two distinct things. A "fight" is something that consists of choosing an attacker, then a target, exhausting the attecker, resolving any Before Fight abilities, dealing damage, then resolving any applicable Fight abilities and finally any Destroyed abilities. Whereas Fight refers only to abilities that trigger if the attacker survives a "fight" and Before Fight abilities only take place within the confines of "fight" but happen before any Fight or other effects that happen within the "fight".

How confused is everyone right now?

So Evasion Sigil takes effect before the "fight" and Before Fight takes place after the "fight" begins but before any damage or Fight abilities trigger. Maybe...
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Kevin B. Smith
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Yup, that's my current understanding (almost).
Quote:
A "fight" is something that consists of choosing an attacker, then a target, exhausting the attecker, resolving any Before Fight abilities, dealing damage, then resolving any applicable Fight abilities and finally any Destroyed abilities.

Fight abilities wouldn't trigger until after all the Destroyed stuff, right, since you have to survive? So they seem tied to the big fight, not to the little fight.
 
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Danny Perello
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peakhope wrote:
Yup, that's my current understanding (almost).
Quote:
A "fight" is something that consists of choosing an attacker, then a target, exhausting the attecker, resolving any Before Fight abilities, dealing damage, then resolving any applicable Fight abilities and finally any Destroyed abilities.

Fight abilities wouldn't trigger until after all the Destroyed stuff, right, since you have to survive? So they seem tied to the big fight, not to the little fight.

Oh, right. Destroyed abilities should trigger right after damage is dealt and just before any Fight ability. Although it may be possible a Fight ability kills something, causing a new round of Destroyed abilities to trigger. Are there any Fight abilities that cause damage or in some other way kill creatures?
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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Relax wrote:
Destroyed abilities should trigger right after damage is dealt and just before any Fight ability. Although it may be possible a Fight ability kills something, causing a new round of Destroyed abilities to trigger. Are there any Fight abilities that cause damage or in some other way kill creatures?

Just one that I can see:
Qyxxlyx Plague Master Mars
Creature
Martian • Scientist
Power: 3
Fight/Reap: Deal 3[D] to each Human creature. This damage cannot be prevented by armor.
 
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Sam R
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simondtaylor wrote:
LateShacka wrote:
There’s no “timing windows” that have been declared (yet) for the game.

And many people want to apply MTG mentality to the game (which has created a million arguments on these posts) much of the confusion with rulings has come about from many trying to apply MTGs stack resolution. Hopefully ffg will come out with official ruling and updates to the rulebook soon.

But as it stands right now, my understanding is that both are “before fight” which means the active player gets to decide.

But given the rulings that were given about resolution for other things triggering at the same time. I believe that if you were to resolve sigil first and got the “exhaust and do nothing” part of it t would cancel out the dealing damage before fight of the creature.


Apart from Library access... Check the FAQ


I’m too lazy to do that. Plus unless you explain your way of thinking I won’t get it, I’m not you and think differently.
 
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Matthew S.
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FAQ wrote:
I have chosen house Logos to be my active house this turn and start off by playing Library Access (CoTA 115), I then play Wild Wormhole (CoTA 125). In what order do I resolve this combination of effects?

When you play a Wild Wormhole after playing a Library Access the following happens in this order:

You gain 1 Æmber from Wild Wormhole’s Æmber bonus.

You draw a card from Library Access’s effect.

You resolve Wild Wormhole’s effect and play the top card of your deck.

You gain Æmber from any Æmber bonus on the played card.

You draw a card from Library Access’s effect.

You resolve any play effects on the card played from the top of your deck.

 
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Sam R
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Prismattic wrote:
FAQ wrote:
I have chosen house Logos to be my active house this turn and start off by playing Library Access (CoTA 115), I then play Wild Wormhole (CoTA 125). In what order do I resolve this combination of effects?

When you play a Wild Wormhole after playing a Library Access the following happens in this order:

You gain 1 Æmber from Wild Wormhole’s Æmber bonus.

You draw a card from Library Access’s effect.

You resolve Wild Wormhole’s effect and play the top card of your deck.

You gain Æmber from any Æmber bonus on the played card.

You draw a card from Library Access’s effect.

You resolve any play effects on the card played from the top of your deck.



Ok.. now tell me your way of thinking... and how that applies to this. Again, I’m not you. I think my own thoughts and not yours.
 
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Max Maloney
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LateShacka wrote:
Ok.. now tell me your way of thinking... and how that applies to this. Again, I’m not you. I think my own thoughts and not yours.

I think you’re mixing up two different people. The second post was providing the FAQ entry (presumably to be helpful), but is not from the same person you first responded to.
 
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Sam R
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Dormammu wrote:
LateShacka wrote:
Ok.. now tell me your way of thinking... and how that applies to this. Again, I’m not you. I think my own thoughts and not yours.

I think you’re mixing up two different people. The second post was providing the FAQ entry (presumably to be helpful), but is not from the same person you first responded to.


No, I know it’s a different person. I just want to know how that explanation from the FAQ explains anything having to do with this.
 
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