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Subject: New Moderation System and Policy rss

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Murr Rockstroh
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darthhugo wrote:
PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your non-gaming information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage pump filter.
This would be great if non-gaming information and political discourse didn't occasionally pop up in gaming related forums, but it does and there's a certain leaning to what does and does not get moderated (at least in the few times I've actually seen a post before it got moderated away), and that is what is disturbing to me.
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Murr wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your non-gaming information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage pump filter.
This would be great if non-gaming information and political discourse didn't occasionally pop up in gaming related forums, but it does and there's a certain leaning to what does and does not get moderated (at least in the few times I've actually seen a post before it got moderated away), and that is what is disturbing to me.

Wellcome to the realization political neutrality does not exist. A d that site owners have always had capability to choose exactly what and how you can access the site.
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Murr wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your non-gaming information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage pump filter.
This would be great if non-gaming information and political discourse didn't occasionally pop up in gaming related forums, but it does and there's a certain leaning to what does and does not get moderated (at least in the few times I've actually seen a post before it got moderated away), and that is what is disturbing to me.

As you've not given examples, I cannot know precisely what you are referring to above, although I could easily makes guesses.

Anyway, do bear in mind that what a lot of people have in the past labelled "non-gaming information or political discourse" is, for other people, simply their everyday experience as human beings (often human beings who are not representative of the majority population, or those who hold power, in their society), and directly connected to their gaming experience. A common example would be the sexism built into the way some games present their content, and how women are confronted with it all the time.

And BGG has indeed chosen to take a side (because there is no such thing as neutral) - the side that doesn't dismiss these experiences as unrelated to "pure" gaming.
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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
anatana wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 32 pages of this

In which case I reject your view as worthless as you can't be bothered looking at counter arguments.

I'm making a new rule that in order to post in this thread, you have to read all previous posts. Even the useless ones. Like this one.
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darthhugo wrote:
Akado wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
anatana wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 32 pages of this, sorry, but this is the last patron badge I buy if they site continues to be moderated in this manner, and I'm already regretting buying the '19 one I have. I have no problem with actual toxicity being removed, but the number of posts in all types of threads that I see deleted now is very concerning. I do not like the idea of octavian and/or a small number of mods getting exclusively to decide what content you get to see as a user. I also think it's amazing that being concerned about censorship can cause supposedly well meaning people to automatically assume you want to live in a world where you can wear blackface apparently.

Did the rise of twitter and reddit affect this? I swear to god the internet is causing people to lose their minds, and it's only getting worse.

When censorship rolls around to someplace essential, I will concur. Until then, pass me the remote and popcorn.

PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage bilge pump filter.
To be fair, "someplace essential" pretty much excludes most aspects of life. Especially a site about a hobby that isn't essential to said hobby. I get it that it's cool to be dismissive of opinions you don't like, but come on.

At least own up to "I don't think that the discourse being censored is vital to BGG's purpose, and that it (said discource being censored) oftentimes takes away from the core content."

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of the moderation's implementation, but I'm kinda coming to rest on the previous statement. There's always some exceptions and collateral damage, but it's not to enough of an extent for me to think that this is too far down the slippy slope. Yet!

No, my point stands... when one starts bemoaning censorship on a site about toys, one is seriously misplacing the import of said place. It isn't dismissive - it is a point that if one is weighing the speech on this site to be "essential" and that it being limited is "censorship", then one has a distorted sense of what is important.

Can we agree that this site isn't an essential site as a venue to exhibit "free" speech? According to you, everything is equal, and to that I call BS. This site is not on the "essential" list.


So, as I said, when the censors come for IMPORTANT venues of speech, give me a call. I will pick up arms and join in.

And if one thinks this IS a place for IMPORTANT speech, give me a call, so I can point out that life isn't here.

Good enough?

No complaining in the Complaints Department!
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Rich Keiser
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TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Akado wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
anatana wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 32 pages of this, sorry, but this is the last patron badge I buy if they site continues to be moderated in this manner, and I'm already regretting buying the '19 one I have. I have no problem with actual toxicity being removed, but the number of posts in all types of threads that I see deleted now is very concerning. I do not like the idea of octavian and/or a small number of mods getting exclusively to decide what content you get to see as a user. I also think it's amazing that being concerned about censorship can cause supposedly well meaning people to automatically assume you want to live in a world where you can wear blackface apparently.

Did the rise of twitter and reddit affect this? I swear to god the internet is causing people to lose their minds, and it's only getting worse.

When censorship rolls around to someplace essential, I will concur. Until then, pass me the remote and popcorn.

PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage bilge pump filter.
To be fair, "someplace essential" pretty much excludes most aspects of life. Especially a site about a hobby that isn't essential to said hobby. I get it that it's cool to be dismissive of opinions you don't like, but come on.

At least own up to "I don't think that the discourse being censored is vital to BGG's purpose, and that it (said discource being censored) oftentimes takes away from the core content."

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of the moderation's implementation, but I'm kinda coming to rest on the previous statement. There's always some exceptions and collateral damage, but it's not to enough of an extent for me to think that this is too far down the slippy slope. Yet!

No, my point stands... when one starts bemoaning censorship on a site about toys, one is seriously misplacing the import of said place. It isn't dismissive - it is a point that if one is weighing the speech on this site to be "essential" and that it being limited is "censorship", then one has a distorted sense of what is important.

Can we agree that this site isn't an essential site as a venue to exhibit "free" speech? According to you, everything is equal, and to that I call BS. This site is not on the "essential" list.


So, as I said, when the censors come for IMPORTANT venues of speech, give me a call. I will pick up arms and join in.

And if one thinks this IS a place for IMPORTANT speech, give me a call, so I can point out that life isn't here.

Good enough?

No complaining in the Complaints Department!

Don't make me buy this place.

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Rich Keiser
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Murr wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
PS... Don't be looking at BGG for your non-gaming information or political discourse - like searching for a nice meal in a sewage pump filter.
This would be great if non-gaming information and political discourse didn't occasionally pop up in gaming related forums, but it does and there's a certain leaning to what does and does not get moderated (at least in the few times I've actually seen a post before it got moderated away), and that is what is disturbing to me.

If all comments were equal in intent and commitment to honest discourse, I would agree. On BGG, they aren't. This game really isn't that difficult, although it does appear the ruleset is quite hard for some to grasp.

One day, it will click for those that want to understand. Those that want to derail never gave two fucks about an honest discussion - quite glad they are getting laser etched out.
 
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Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Example: Abortion rights -- I'm pro-choice; but I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't share my view; and I know some who don't share my view who are *also* capable of having a good conversation. And, I can't say I entirely disagree with them -- it's not an issue that really lends itself to a black-or-white place (especially as a man, where I'm already out of my arena talking about it to begin with).

But, way too many can't - and immediately lapse into their "libtard" and other insults -- aggressiveness with no substance. IMO, the suspension/moderation should be more for that reason than the fact that they don't share my opinion.

(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).

I (used to) enjoy the conversations here; but I was also mindful it was a boardgame site, filled with people I didn't know (and mostly would never meet). Ultimately, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to say *anything* here that would get me upset (I can't fix the whole world; and - frankly - unless you're a congressperson, your thoughts aren't really worth a whole lot in practicality). But, the inconsistency of the moderation (IMO) definitely has caused me to limit my posting (and delete what I've posted in the past -- even though, I'm actually aligned with the political leaning of the leadership on this site).



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Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?
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Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Example: Abortion rights -- I'm pro-choice; but I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't share my view; and I know some who don't share my view who are *also* capable of having a good conversation. And, I can't say I entirely disagree with them -- it's not an issue that really lends itself to a black-or-white place (especially as a man, where I'm already out of my arena talking about it to begin with).

But, way too many can't - and immediately lapse into their "libtard" and other insults -- aggressiveness with no substance. IMO, the suspension/moderation should be more for that reason than the fact that they don't share my opinion.

(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).

I (used to) enjoy the conversations here; but I was also mindful it was a boardgame site, filled with people I didn't know (and mostly would never meet). Ultimately, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to say *anything* here that would get me upset (I can't fix the whole world; and - frankly - unless you're a congressperson, your thoughts aren't really worth a whole lot in practicality). But, the inconsistency of the moderation (IMO) definitely has caused me to limit my posting (and delete what I've posted in the past -- even though, I'm actually aligned with the political leaning of the leadership on this site).




Recognizing that forum communications are not the clearest method by which to express nuanced thoughts and ideas, I can equally be sure that disruptive and ill-intentioned comments are plain as the day. We aren't talking about super-geniuses here that are performing some never-before-seen methodology to deliver their intent... it is quite obvious. Its contextual, leans on institutional knowledge, experience, and a brain to detect these things. I'm not a moderator and they are clear to me.

So let's not conclude that all debate is the same, nor give too much credit for those that eventually get caught.

And from what I have observed, it is those clever chaps that always get the moderation.
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Rich Keiser
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Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Example: Abortion rights -- I'm pro-choice; but I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't share my view; and I know some who don't share my view who are *also* capable of having a good conversation. And, I can't say I entirely disagree with them -- it's not an issue that really lends itself to a black-or-white place (especially as a man, where I'm already out of my arena talking about it to begin with).

But, way too many can't - and immediately lapse into their "libtard" and other insults -- aggressiveness with no substance. IMO, the suspension/moderation should be more for that reason than the fact that they don't share my opinion.

(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).

I (used to) enjoy the conversations here; but I was also mindful it was a boardgame site, filled with people I didn't know (and mostly would never meet). Ultimately, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to say *anything* here that would get me upset (I can't fix the whole world; and - frankly - unless you're a congressperson, your thoughts aren't really worth a whole lot in practicality). But, the inconsistency of the moderation (IMO) definitely has caused me to limit my posting (and delete what I've posted in the past -- even though, I'm actually aligned with the political leaning of the leadership on this site).




What is the gnashing of teeth about not being able to say anything on this site? Is this place viewed as such a minefield, where at any moment clicking submit can result in the equivalent of having one's virtual legs blown off?

I get that some have difficulties with communications IRL, so I'm not saying that this can't be the feelings of some. If that is the case, there really are no solutions, other than applying whatever tools one employs IRL to not get "moderated" in F2F conversation, to all communications online.

Personally, I know exactly what behavior, word-choices, subjects, tone, etc will get me moderated on BGG. I always knew it. I sometimes chose to ignore it or couldn't control it - all to my peril (justly deserved)... but there was never, ever a mystery to me.

That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.




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darthhugo wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Example: Abortion rights -- I'm pro-choice; but I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't share my view; and I know some who don't share my view who are *also* capable of having a good conversation. And, I can't say I entirely disagree with them -- it's not an issue that really lends itself to a black-or-white place (especially as a man, where I'm already out of my arena talking about it to begin with).

But, way too many can't - and immediately lapse into their "libtard" and other insults -- aggressiveness with no substance. IMO, the suspension/moderation should be more for that reason than the fact that they don't share my opinion.

(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).

I (used to) enjoy the conversations here; but I was also mindful it was a boardgame site, filled with people I didn't know (and mostly would never meet). Ultimately, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to say *anything* here that would get me upset (I can't fix the whole world; and - frankly - unless you're a congressperson, your thoughts aren't really worth a whole lot in practicality). But, the inconsistency of the moderation (IMO) definitely has caused me to limit my posting (and delete what I've posted in the past -- even though, I'm actually aligned with the political leaning of the leadership on this site).




What is the gnashing of teeth about not being able to say anything on this site? Is this place viewed as such a minefield, where at any moment clicking submit can result in the equivalent of having one's virtual legs blown off?

I get that some have difficulties with communications IRL, so I'm not saying that this can't be the feelings of some. If that is the case, there really are no solutions, other than applying whatever tools one employs IRL to not get "moderated" in F2F conversation, to all communications online.

Personally, I know exactly what behavior, word-choices, subjects, tone, etc will get me moderated on BGG. I always knew it. I sometimes chose to ignore it or couldn't control it - all to my peril (justly deserved)... but there was never, ever a mystery to me.

That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.
It's interesting. When some folks are happy with the status quo, they dismiss the statements of others who are not happy with the status quo, and seek to shut down the discussion.

I'm sure it's okay, though, because this is clearly different than when other people do it.
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At this point this thread is a fractal
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Akado wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Example: Abortion rights -- I'm pro-choice; but I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't share my view; and I know some who don't share my view who are *also* capable of having a good conversation. And, I can't say I entirely disagree with them -- it's not an issue that really lends itself to a black-or-white place (especially as a man, where I'm already out of my arena talking about it to begin with).

But, way too many can't - and immediately lapse into their "libtard" and other insults -- aggressiveness with no substance. IMO, the suspension/moderation should be more for that reason than the fact that they don't share my opinion.

(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).

I (used to) enjoy the conversations here; but I was also mindful it was a boardgame site, filled with people I didn't know (and mostly would never meet). Ultimately, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to say *anything* here that would get me upset (I can't fix the whole world; and - frankly - unless you're a congressperson, your thoughts aren't really worth a whole lot in practicality). But, the inconsistency of the moderation (IMO) definitely has caused me to limit my posting (and delete what I've posted in the past -- even though, I'm actually aligned with the political leaning of the leadership on this site).




What is the gnashing of teeth about not being able to say anything on this site? Is this place viewed as such a minefield, where at any moment clicking submit can result in the equivalent of having one's virtual legs blown off?

I get that some have difficulties with communications IRL, so I'm not saying that this can't be the feelings of some. If that is the case, there really are no solutions, other than applying whatever tools one employs IRL to not get "moderated" in F2F conversation, to all communications online.

Personally, I know exactly what behavior, word-choices, subjects, tone, etc will get me moderated on BGG. I always knew it. I sometimes chose to ignore it or couldn't control it - all to my peril (justly deserved)... but there was never, ever a mystery to me.

That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.
It's interesting. When some folks are happy with the status quo, they dismiss the statements of others who are not happy with the status quo, and seek to shut down the discussion.

I'm sure it's okay, though, because this is clearly different than when other people do it.

I have zero issue with someone expressing their opinions. What I post has no bearing on that ability.

If you believe that your efforts will alter the moderation system, then by all means, devote your life energies to it.

A great differentiator between success and failure in life is resource allocation and battle selection. I'm all for when some choose poorly.


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Abiezer Coppe wrote:
anatana wrote:
I can't be bothered to read 32 pages of this

In which case I reject your view as worthless as you can't be bothered looking at counter arguments.
I mean, like, yeah. We worked HARD on those 32 33 34 35 36 37 pages, we will not be ignored!
 
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wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?
With a smile?
 
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skutsch wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?
With a smile?

She's a cute Nazi.

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darthhugo wrote:
skutsch wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?
With a smile?

She's a cute Nazi.

That we're still talking about Barbarossa shows the marketing power of things that are becoming less and less socially-acceptable. We're kinda in a transition period.

Hopefully it doesn't last too long, but most carbon-based life forms can't change their values and opinions overnight.
 
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Oh, I was thinking Prussian Blue.
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I was thinking of redacted current political personage
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skutsch wrote:
I was thinking of redacted current political personage

I was thinking George Costanza.

C'mon, if we are playing the game, you definitely have to limber up before hand.





Cut back to the limo.
Jerry and George are alone inside.

Jerry: What's taking him so long out there?

George: Didja see the way she was looking at me?

Jerry: She's a Nazi, George. A Nazi!

George: I know, I know. Kind of a cute Nazi though.

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wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.

Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?


I pretty much alluded to that when I said this:

Lemur wrote:
(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).


Substitute "neonazism" for "sexism" and it falls under the same category.
 
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Chris
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darthhugo wrote:
That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.



I guess our experiences have been different then.

For example: Intent. I was told, rather explicitly, intent didn't enter into the equation (so, when I got a one-day ban for making a joke with a friend, the fact that it was sarcasm with a friend didn't matter -- on *face value* -- it looked problematic. Intent doesn't matter.

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

If you were playing a game and someone was teaching and your friend did a move and received, I dunno, five gold; and then you did the same exact move and received one, and the answer when you asked was because, "all decisions are made by the person teaching the game and there's no hard-and-fast rules and there's not even any outward facing logic; but you have to just take it." Most people would say, "Um, yeah, that's BS" and stop playing the game. And, the same goes for treatment at your workplace; or in a club to which you belong. Imagine doing the same job as someone next to you and being paid 50% less; how would you react? (And, I see the irony, because women are *still* fighting that, years after it's become openly apparent to everyone.

So, when you say, "There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life." - you're functionally describing ALL humans. That desire to understand cause and effect is built into everyone. I would say - if you live your life without care of any sort of rules governing any actions you take; you're more the exception than I.
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Matthew M
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Lemur wrote:

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

I'm going to need specifics on this, because you have either grossly misunderstood something or are grossly misstating something.

-MMM
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Octavian wrote:
Lemur wrote:

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

I'm going to need specifics on this, because you have either grossly misunderstood something or are grossly misstating something.

-MMM

Sounds like he means Alaren.
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