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Subject: New Moderation System and Policy rss

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Rich Keiser
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skutsch wrote:
I was thinking of redacted current political personage


I was thinking George Costanza.

C'mon, if we are playing the game, you definitely have to limber up before hand.





Cut back to the limo.
Jerry and George are alone inside.

Jerry: What's taking him so long out there?

George: Didja see the way she was looking at me?

Jerry: She's a Nazi, George. A Nazi!

George: I know, I know. Kind of a cute Nazi though.

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wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.


Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?



I pretty much alluded to that when I said this:

Lemur wrote:
(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).



Substitute "neonazism" for "sexism" and it falls under the same category.
 
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darthhugo wrote:
That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.




I guess our experiences have been different then.

For example: Intent. I was told, rather explicitly, intent didn't enter into the equation (so, when I got a one-day ban for making a joke with a friend, the fact that it was sarcasm with a friend didn't matter -- on *face value* -- it looked problematic. Intent doesn't matter.

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

If you were playing a game and someone was teaching and your friend did a move and received, I dunno, five gold; and then you did the same exact move and received one, and the answer when you asked was because, "all decisions are made by the person teaching the game and there's no hard-and-fast rules and there's not even any outward facing logic; but you have to just take it." Most people would say, "Um, yeah, that's BS" and stop playing the game. And, the same goes for treatment at your workplace; or in a club to which you belong. Imagine doing the same job as someone next to you and being paid 50% less; how would you react? (And, I see the irony, because women are *still* fighting that, years after it's become openly apparent to everyone.

So, when you say, "There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life." - you're functionally describing ALL humans. That desire to understand cause and effect is built into everyone. I would say - if you live your life without care of any sort of rules governing any actions you take; you're more the exception than I.
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Lemur wrote:

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.


I'm going to need specifics on this, because you have either grossly misunderstood something or are grossly misstating something.

-MMM
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Octavian wrote:
Lemur wrote:

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.


I'm going to need specifics on this, because you have either grossly misunderstood something or are grossly misstating something.

-MMM


Sounds like he means Alaren.
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J J
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Lemur wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Well - that could be true.

I think more moderation should be geared towards the *way* things are said; as compared to the actual things that are said.


Is there a good *way* to make white supremacist/neoNazi statements?



I pretty much alluded to that when I said this:

Lemur wrote:
(I can't imagine a *good* reason, for example, to argue *for* sexism in a game; but I'd still be willing to indulge someone who could articulate their thoughts tactfully; as compared to those who resort to condescension and insults (and, potentially, aggression/threats)).



Substitute "neonazism" for "sexism" and it falls under the same category.


No. Just no. BGG has spent the past two years stamping out that crap - it will not be tolerated, regardless of how "articulate".
 
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JasonJ0 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Lemur wrote:

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.


I'm going to need specifics on this, because you have either grossly misunderstood something or are grossly misstating something.

-MMM


Sounds like he means Alaren.


If that is the case, then there was no permaban from BGG involved (not to mention that moderation in RSP should not me seen as any kind of analog for how moderation operates on the rest of BGG).

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Désirée Greverud
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Lemur wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.




I guess our experiences have been different then.

For example: Intent. I was told, rather explicitly, intent didn't enter into the equation (so, when I got a one-day ban for making a joke with a friend, the fact that it was sarcasm with a friend didn't matter -- on *face value* -- it looked problematic. Intent doesn't matter.

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

If you were playing a game and someone was teaching and your friend did a move and received, I dunno, five gold; and then you did the same exact move and received one, and the answer when you asked was because, "all decisions are made by the person teaching the game and there's no hard-and-fast rules and there's not even any outward facing logic; but you have to just take it." Most people would say, "Um, yeah, that's BS" and stop playing the game. And, the same goes for treatment at your workplace; or in a club to which you belong. Imagine doing the same job as someone next to you and being paid 50% less; how would you react? (And, I see the irony, because women are *still* fighting that, years after it's become openly apparent to everyone.

So, when you say, "There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life." - you're functionally describing ALL humans. That desire to understand cause and effect is built into everyone. I would say - if you live your life without care of any sort of rules governing any actions you take; you're more the exception than I.

except human interaction isn't a game with strictly demarcated rules. The moment there is a "rule" about what is allowed to say and what isn't, people will simply find a way to continue their past bad behavior using new language claiming the new language "isn't against the rules." Some rules require human interpretation. "Don't be a dick" requires interpretation. What is being a dick? was what someone said dickish enough to violate that rule? People who want strict rules about what you can or can't say to other people only want those rules so they can go as close to the line as possible without stepping over and always be able to say "it's not against the rules." When you have a nebulous line, it means people need to just stay away from it rather than try to tap dance on the edge of it. And that's a good thing.
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Rich Keiser
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Lemur wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.




I guess our experiences have been different then.

For example: Intent. I was told, rather explicitly, intent didn't enter into the equation (so, when I got a one-day ban for making a joke with a friend, the fact that it was sarcasm with a friend didn't matter -- on *face value* -- it looked problematic. Intent doesn't matter.

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

If you were playing a game and someone was teaching and your friend did a move and received, I dunno, five gold; and then you did the same exact move and received one, and the answer when you asked was because, "all decisions are made by the person teaching the game and there's no hard-and-fast rules and there's not even any outward facing logic; but you have to just take it." Most people would say, "Um, yeah, that's BS" and stop playing the game. And, the same goes for treatment at your workplace; or in a club to which you belong. Imagine doing the same job as someone next to you and being paid 50% less; how would you react? (And, I see the irony, because women are *still* fighting that, years after it's become openly apparent to everyone.

So, when you say, "There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life." - you're functionally describing ALL humans. That desire to understand cause and effect is built into everyone. I would say - if you live your life without care of any sort of rules governing any actions you take; you're more the exception than I.


You keep extrapolating my interpretation of moderation practices to the actual moderators. Until I actually write a check to Aldie to buy BGG, you have to be able to parse between what I hypothesize is how moderation would be handled with how it actually is handled. The latter, which we will never know, nor do we need to know.

My comments are a POV take on how I would handle the evaluation process in moderation. For me, intent, or whatever word you need, is an essential part. Of course, sometimes it isn't able to be parsed or identified, but sometimes it is. If it can be, then it gets a score on the overall evaluation. As I said... complex score sheet. Not everyone can do it without a calculator or hints illustration.
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Rich Keiser
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Lemur wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
That is why this fear of "at any moment" is so bewildering.


As for "what" is moderated, it really isn't that simple. Its a calculation of what, how, intent, subtext, context, those participating, and what is acceptable at that point in time.

There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life. On BGG, it just isn't going to happen. You are the one that has to work through where that line is, for you and the situation. As it should be, because that is exactly what one must do in life.

I get if that isn't possible for you, but then whatever tools you have learned to employ in life, around this issue, must be applied here. Be it not participating, or reviewing everything you write... whatever.




I guess our experiences have been different then.

For example: Intent. I was told, rather explicitly, intent didn't enter into the equation (so, when I got a one-day ban for making a joke with a friend, the fact that it was sarcasm with a friend didn't matter -- on *face value* -- it looked problematic. Intent doesn't matter.

But then, this past week, someone received a perma-ban because, even though what he *said* was polite and friendly; the assumption by moderators was that he was really making veiled threats. So, intent *did* matter.

If you were playing a game and someone was teaching and your friend did a move and received, I dunno, five gold; and then you did the same exact move and received one, and the answer when you asked was because, "all decisions are made by the person teaching the game and there's no hard-and-fast rules and there's not even any outward facing logic; but you have to just take it." Most people would say, "Um, yeah, that's BS" and stop playing the game. And, the same goes for treatment at your workplace; or in a club to which you belong. Imagine doing the same job as someone next to you and being paid 50% less; how would you react? (And, I see the irony, because women are *still* fighting that, years after it's become openly apparent to everyone.

So, when you say, "There should never be, and never will be a demarcated line for one to plot their course around. You have always wanted that, which tells me that you need that in your life." - you're functionally describing ALL humans. That desire to understand cause and effect is built into everyone. I would say - if you live your life without care of any sort of rules governing any actions you take; you're more the exception than I.


Facts are really essential to be correct.

1. No permaban - was self-ban. Ball, under arm, huffed off the school playground. Quite different than being pushed outside the walls by lethal force.

2. Not friendly comment by the now self-exiled. Once again, context, and all those other complicated things.

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I know Octavian has commented on it already, but what is it about the Take That thread that has apparently brought out the worst in BGG posters? It's not a political, social, cultural or economic subject, yet it's had about 50 deletions. Octavian said there was some bigoted stuff going on, but why there? Strange.
 
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I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.
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skutsch wrote:
I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.


Is that a genre? Never knew it.
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skutsch wrote:
I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.

This one started off with an OP directly positing that the reason some people don't like "take-that" is that they are thin-skinned not-fully-adult and can't separate fiction from reality. That notably increased the likelihood of fireworks and trainwrecks.
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russ wrote:
skutsch wrote:
I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.

This one started off with an OP directly positing that the reason some people don't like "take-that" is that they are thin-skinned not-fully-adult and can't separate fiction from reality. That notably increased the likelihood of fireworks and trainwrecks.


Talk about going in shooting first and asking questions later.
 
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Shader10 wrote:
russ wrote:
skutsch wrote:
I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.

This one started off with an OP directly positing that the reason some people don't like "take-that" is that they are thin-skinned not-fully-adult and can't separate fiction from reality. That notably increased the likelihood of fireworks and trainwrecks.


Talk about going in shooting first and asking questions later.

There are other ways to start internet debates?
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russ wrote:
skutsch wrote:
I didn’t even visit. Take that threads bore me. I guess this one was more exciting.

This one started off with an OP directly positing that the reason some people don't like "take-that" is that they are thin-skinned not-fully-adult and can't separate fiction from reality. That notably increased the likelihood of fireworks and trainwrecks.

Wow, and people took that badly? I guess it's because they're thin-skinned, not-fully-adult, and can't separate fiction from reality.


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I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.
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Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.

Perhaps, but to be fair, "You're silencing me because you disagree with my opinion" is typically the cry of people with awful, disgusting opinions.
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Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.


No what I think is happening is that those who have been silenced and belittled and ignored are finally getting a chance to say 'no more,we will not stand for this and we demand better from the society we live in.'
Liberalism and social justice are being applied across the board and those who were once immune from it are being held to account. Of course those being challenged are refusing to quit the stage and give up their privileged positions in society so there is push back.

(Of course anyone who tries to use 'social justice' as a negative is already showing a lot of bias in their statement.)
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grant5 wrote:
Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.

Perhaps, but to be fair, "You're silencing me because you disagree with my opinion" is typically the cry of people with awful, disgusting opinions.
The only part of what you said I would disagree with is your use of the word "typically," I would agree with you if you said "sometimes" instead.
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petegs wrote:
Liberalism and social justice are being applied across the board and those who were once immune from it are being held to account. Of course those being challenged are refusing to quit the stage and give up their privileged positions in society so there is push back.


I'd agree insofar as liberalism isn't anti-censorship in all circumstances. I mean, there are some points where it should be obvious to everyone that it's called for (e.g. a heavily moderated chat room for children). There's nothing in liberal ideology that calls for all forums to be entirely unmoderated and uncensored free for alls.

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that liberalism and social justice activism aren't synonymous though. You can definitely subscribe to both, but you can also be a liberal who rejects social justice activist or a social justice activism that rejects liberalism.

I'm a passionate liberal and also in favour of the large majority of what comes out of social justice activism, and I'd describe what we're seeing here as definitely stemming more so from social justice than liberal ideology (which is more concerned with increasing freedoms than stamping out injustices).
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Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.


I started this thread because of what I saw as heavy-handed and one-sided moderation, but I haven't seen as much lately. Which threads are you referring to, even if you can't point to the actual posts?
 
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Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.


Yeah, it sucks when the things that were always acceptable suddenly flip over on the poster like a snow-mobile, pinning them underneath.

At night, the ice-weasels come.

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TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
Murr wrote:
I was watching something on Youtube by a former reporter from the BBC and he said something that, in my mind, encapsulated what I perceive is going on here with some (not all) of the moderation that's occurring here on this site and across social media in general.

A quote from the video:

"I've always considered myself of the liberal left, but especially since the election of Trump, I've been trying to understand what happened. And I'm convinced that the polarization we're seeing is mainly driven by the shallow side of liberalism, in particular, where supposedly inclusive social justice liberalism stops being inclusive, and secretly judges and dispises people that don't think the same way."

I agree that some moderation is needed, but some of the things I've seen moderated, fall into what that statement says. I can't give examples, because, of course, they've been moderated away.


I started this thread because of what I saw as heavy-handed and one-sided moderation, but I haven't seen as much lately. Which threads are you referring to, even if you can't point to the actual posts?
Dice Forge and Food Chain Magnate expansions both have posts in their forums that have been moderated. These are games I'm subscribed to, so they came to my attention and I've been following them since they were posted. Did some of the posts deserve moderation? Yeah, but I still preferred the old system of collapsed threads over just out right removal. Did some of the moderation get a little heavy handed? In my opinion, yes, there was some moderation that was a bit of an over reaction.

Full disclosure: None of my posts were moderated, theyr'e still there, so that's not the reason I'm here discussing this.
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