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Subject: Can somebody explain the stretch goal model to me? rss

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Enon Sci
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I've literally never seen this before.

So, instead of saying Act II unlocks at funding level X, Act III unlocks at funding level Y, we have this implementation where the elements of an Act are unlocked piecemeal.

Has this been done before? What happens if only 3/4th of an Act is unlocked (like 3 of the 4 travelers, and that third traveler doesn't get their diplomacy cards, for example)??

My hope is that AR has done this in the past and somebody around here observed how such was handled.

More a curiosity than a worry, but figured I'd ask.
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Frank Calcagno
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I've seen it done often. It shows incremental accomplishment instead of a 1 million gbp single SG...
And they are confident all will unlock, and even if there is left over to unlock, they will make it good and provide the entire act...
(Essentially the entire structure of the SGs here are to unlock 2 complete game expansions (Acts II & III), so seeing that will take 4M gbp to reach, they'd only have 2 SGs otherwise...
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David Dukelow
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Anarchosyn wrote:
What happens if only 3/4th of an Act is unlocked (like 3 of the 4 travelers, and that third traveler doesn't get their diplomacy cards, for example)??
We get a partial campaign and we never get to know what would have happened otherwise. Sorry for the sarcasm, lol.

It has been asked and the canned response is "don't worry about it, enjoy the campaign." Which I think is code for: at the very least everything in act 3 will be unlocked, we already have enough funding, but these SGs need to last the whole campaign.
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Enon Sci
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So... it is all smoke and mirrors, then? The carrot on the proverbial stick is an illusion, and we'll get the whole act no matter how far we reach into its goals?

That's the only reasonable assumption, but it means AR is basically manipulating the reward centers of our brains to get more money.

Alternatively.. actually, I see no alternatives.

I've literally never seen this model employed - stretch goals tend to be discrete items not dependent on future unlocks to be useful. I haven't followed AR much, however, so I figured it was a model they used before (or somebody had).
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Lucien Copus
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Spoiler alert, all the stretch goals are planned in advance and their goal levels are set to make sure it happens.

Second spoiler alert, this is the standard way of doing things for all board game kickstarters.
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Enon Sci
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Ogrecrusher wrote:
Spoiler alert, all the stretch goals are planned in advance and their goal levels are set to make sure it happens.

Second spoiler alert, this is the standard way of doing things for all board game kickstarters.


I've often found the snarkiest people ironically are the ones most prone to missing something obvious in the equation.

In this case, you're missing that these aren't independent stretch goals, but are a part of two very discrete packages. We literally have TWO stretch goals, but broken up into piecemeal parts.

e.g. those extra cards and characters aren't independent extras, but dependent on the full Act being unlocked to have any relevance.

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David Dukelow
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Anarchosyn wrote:
So... it is all smoke and mirrors, then? The carrot on the proverbial stick is an illusion, and we'll get the whole act no matter how far we reach into its goals?

That's the only reasonable assumption, but it means AR is basically manipulating the reward centers of our brains to get more money.
This is really kind of a larger conversation.

To be fair to them, I'm sure that there are some numbers they need to actually hit in order to make it viable for them to give us all 3 acts. If they didn't, we'd probably be looking at act 3 as a paid add on.

Also, when you say "AR is basically manipulating the reward centers of our brains to get more money." I would respond by saying that you're basically right, but it's a bit more nuanced than that.
In order to keep visibility on their project, they need backers coming back to the project site regularly, commenting, participating in forums, checking kicktraq. So They really already have our money, but they need our clicks and posts to keep their project visible so they can get other people's money, and to do that they need to keep us involved. I think it's also a big part of the reason they do so much community voted material.

I don't really feel they are being dishonest or unfair, I think it's just the way the kickstarter business model works and they know what is going to work. The difference with this project, is it really feels to the community like you need all the SGs for the game to feel complete, so people are more aware that the SGs are necessary for the game.
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Richard
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Anarchosyn wrote:
So... it is all smoke and mirrors, then? The carrot on the proverbial stick is an illusion, and we'll get the whole act no matter how far we reach into its goals?


whistle

I've seen it before. It's a way to have a constant flow of goals to keep people excited because it's not just about the game these days, the campaign is a game in itself. Or, marketing.

And yes I'm sure there are a mix of SGs these days, both from a true need for a level of funding, but I'd say most are there to get people to put more in for the 'free' unlocks.
 
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Enon Sci
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Dawedu wrote:

Also, when you say "AR is basically manipulating the reward centers of our brains to get more money." I would respond by saying that you're basically right, but it's a bit more nuanced than that.
In order to keep visibility on their project, they need backers coming back to the project site regularly, commenting, participating in forums, checking kicktraq. So They really already have our money, but they need our clicks and posts to keep their project visible so they can get other people's money, and to do that they need to keep us involved. I think it's also a big part of the reason they do so much community voted material.

I don't really feel they are being dishonest or unfair, I think it's just the way the kickstarter business model works and they know what is going to work. The difference with this project, is it really feels to the community like you need all the SGs for the game to feel complete, so people are more aware that the SGs are necessary for the game.


I do not believe they're being unfair or malicious either, but they are being dishonest IF (and only if) they do not need the funding level designated for the item being promised.

For example:




If the game was funded ONLY to the tune of £2430k, then would the expansion be cancelled? Or would the world consist of only 20 cards? Or Naazer - what if it was funded only to the tune of £2320k? Would he only have diplomacy cards, but no combat cards?

If yes, then they're being honest. If no, and the full Act would get developed anyway, then they aren't being honest.

I can live with such duplicity, but it is duplicity if for no other reason than certain people might be incentivized to contribute more in the hopes of reaching a currently unreached stretch goal.
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Russell Corbally
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I've seen it done often as well... certainly if this model bothers anyone, they can drop the project.

I've also seen SGs being given even if unreached at the end of campaigns and sometimes not given...

No great conspiracy or evil intention... really seems to bother those that can't go with the flow the most.

In this case, I'm certain we will get the complete act before the end.

Ultimately, we get what we get... if it's a good value to you, grab it! If not, there's a ton of other games out there.
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David Dukelow
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Anarchosyn wrote:
they are being dishonest IF (and only if) they do not need the funding level designated for the item being promised.

If the game was funded ONLY to the tune of £2430k, then would the expansion be cancelled? Or would the world consist of only 20 cards? Or Naazer - what if it was funded only to the tune of £2320k? Would he only have diplomacy cards, but no combat cards?

If yes, then they're being honest. If no, and the full Act would get developed anyway, then they aren't being honest.

I can live with such duplicity, but it is duplicity if for no other reason than certain people might be incentivized to contribute more in the hopes of reaching a currently unreached stretch goal.
Yeah, you definitely have a good point here. I guess from my perspective, I understand that the SG model is usually, to a certain extent, just smoke and mirrors. So it never enters my head that yeah, they really need that level of funding to complete the game.

Just to give some perspective, this is my third KS game, the first was one I pledged to this summer, and they had all the SGs in a chart at the beginning of the campaign. The campaign was really successful, and far exceeded the SGs on the chart, which were very real amounts the developer needed to include those items. But after the SGs were all met the backers kept on asking, what are the next SGs? The developer had to tell them, this is it! We've met them all.
 
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Ted William
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The intentions here are fairly transparent. This is a hugely successful campaign and the creators can afford to make it a fun and entertaining ride.
If you want an example of dishonest, try this out. To set a stretch goal amount that seems unreasonable (it was a $75K range) near the end of the campaign and when the pledges fall $600 short, to not even consider discussing unlocking it. I didn't care about the stretch goal, it was just a stupid box but it was clear that the creators never imagined they could reach the goal so they didn't cost it out correctly.

This Tainted Grail campaign is almost ridiculous, the creators are being so generous. I pledged on day 1 and thought that the SGs would enhance the core game a bit and that there would be add-on expansions to boost the total. I thought the price for the core game was reasonable. I am just floored that we get so much extra stuff from the stretch goals.
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This kind of sales in KS happens quite frequently. Anyone that says they have never seen this probably doesn't KS very much. It is 100% nothing new though and happens all the time. Sometimes a company will just finish off the expansion regardless of the funding and sometimes they just don't produce it. More often than not though the expansion is finished.
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Sergio Macias
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Anarchosyn wrote:

if for no other reason than certain people might be incentivized to contribute more in the hopes of reaching a currently unreached stretch goal.


What's the saying? Ah, yes!

A fool and his money are soon parted
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Enon Sci
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russonc wrote:
I've seen it done often as well... certainly if this model bothers anyone, they can drop the project.

I've also seen SGs being given even if unreached at the end of campaigns and sometimes not given...

No great conspiracy or evil intention... really seems to bother those that can't go with the flow the most.

In this case, I'm certain we will get the complete act before the end.

Ultimately, we get what we get... if it's a good value to you, grab it! If not, there's a ton of other games out there.


What are you talking about? Go with the flow? I'm literally asking a very simple and distinct question:

What happens if a Box doesn't get fully funded? See my comment under the screenshot I posted above - it seems crazy they'd abandon a half funded project, but the SGs that unlocked are worthless without the whole.

I've never seen SG dependency like this (i.e. Naazer has no usefulness as a SG if the world he exists in doesn't come to fruition).

I'm not bothered, I'm curious.
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William Springer
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CMON did the same thing with their Song of Ice and Fire kickstarter - multiple stretch goals to unlock one complete unit. I've only seen it from those two companies, but then I don't normally play miniatures games.
 
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I expect that if a box turns out to not fully fund during the KS, they will say something like "oh we expect the missing funds to come in during backerkit, so we will just pretend you great backers unlocked the whole thing yay! You are awesome, we are awesome, the game is awesome!" Mutual back-clapping ensues.

They are going down the incremental road to offer the sense of a sequence of achievements, but yes, these are largely illusory, I would say.
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Brian Franzman
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Anarchosyn wrote:
russonc wrote:
I've seen it done often as well... certainly if this model bothers anyone, they can drop the project.

I've also seen SGs being given even if unreached at the end of campaigns and sometimes not given...

No great conspiracy or evil intention... really seems to bother those that can't go with the flow the most.

In this case, I'm certain we will get the complete act before the end.

Ultimately, we get what we get... if it's a good value to you, grab it! If not, there's a ton of other games out there.


What are you talking about? Go with the flow? I'm literally asking a very simple and distinct question:

What happens if a Box doesn't get fully funded? See my comment under the screenshot I posted above - it seems crazy they'd abandon a half funded project, but the SGs that unlocked are worthless without the whole.

I've never seen SG dependency like this (i.e. Naazer has no usefulness as a SG if the world he exists in doesn't come to fruition).

I'm not bothered, I'm curious.


OK, we know that game publishers on KS can project the ending fund amount fairly accurately based on the first few days. Look at Kicktraq.com, which does roughly the same thing, although these projections tend to be wildly inaccurate in the first half of a campaign -- but as time runs down the projections become much more realistic. These projections let the publisher decide how to break up those stretch goals that are dependent on one another so that the entire expansion is completed before the final day of the KS.

We know that game publishers use their projections to add stretch goals at whatever tempo they feel is needed in their attempt to keep up whatever pace they have decided is necessary to lure in new backers. You'll see the monetary spacing between stretch goals tends to become much wider as the project winds down.

Hypothetically, though, what would happen if funding completely halted at one point midway through a stretch goal expansion (due to, for example, a widespread vicious rumor about the publisher being involved in some scam or scandal)? My guess is that it would depend on whether or not that expansion has already been fully developed beforehand. If it was, then the publisher would probably also give the remainder of the expansion away instead of issuing a partial one. If it wasn't, then I would expect the publisher, in order to cut expenses, might issue an update saying the bonus content that had been reached would be modified or reduced in scope. Keep in mind that KS stretch goals are occasionally just pie in the sky (the Conan app, for example) that never sees fruition.
 
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Anarchosyn wrote:
russonc wrote:
I've seen it done often as well... certainly if this model bothers anyone, they can drop the project.

I've also seen SGs being given even if unreached at the end of campaigns and sometimes not given...

No great conspiracy or evil intention... really seems to bother those that can't go with the flow the most.

In this case, I'm certain we will get the complete act before the end.

Ultimately, we get what we get... if it's a good value to you, grab it! If not, there's a ton of other games out there.


What are you talking about? Go with the flow? I'm literally asking a very simple and distinct question:

What happens if a Box doesn't get fully funded? See my comment under the screenshot I posted above - it seems crazy they'd abandon a half funded project, but the SGs that unlocked are worthless without the whole.

I've never seen SG dependency like this (i.e. Naazer has no usefulness as a SG if the world he exists in doesn't come to fruition).

I'm not bothered, I'm curious.


Just for some reassurance. I looked up other Awaken Realms KS campaigns in preparation for backing this one and I saw they did the same kind of stretch goals in those campaigns. The elements for all the expansions were unlocked by the end and I am pretty sure this one will be the same.
 
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Yeah, today we are well over 200K. I don't think we'll find out this time what happens if we don't get enough funding. After the current character, which was released today and we are halfway through completing, there's the journal, another character(board, mini, cards) and then I think another stack of secret cards and another stack of event cards. So it's likely that we'll get everything unlocked.
 
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Bram Kok
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In the Nemesis campaign there's a stretch goal which only got unlocked partially because there were backers who voiced their disinterest in the goal. So only 20 pages were unlocked, but we still got a 80 page comic/campaign book as a gift to backers.
 
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The4thJawa wrote:
In the Nemesis campaign there's a stretch goal which only got unlocked partially because there were backers who voiced their disinterest in the goal. So only 20 pages were unlocked, but we still got a 80 page comic/campaign book as a gift to backers.


That was very nice.
 
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Victor Mancha wrote:
The4thJawa wrote:
In the Nemesis campaign there's a stretch goal which only got unlocked partially because there were backers who voiced their disinterest in the goal. So only 20 pages were unlocked, but we still got a 80 page comic/campaign book as a gift to backers.


That was very nice.


um, actually, the gift was an ADDITIONAL 80 pages (partly because AR had additional profits they wanted to give back to backers).
Everyone got the new 80 page gift and the 20 page intro book. But only those who pledged/purchased the add-on 80 page book got that additional content too.
 
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Even in the spirit of expecting all goals to be unlocked, I do not like that a partial campaign might be delivered, potentially with a need for a "campaign completion pack" add-on for additional money or some such nonsense. In many recent campaigns I have seen component quality upgrades as stretch goals, though all stretch goals here seem to be additional content included for backers. Nothing wrong with that, and I don't frequent KS much, but the structure in this KS seems like the structure I have seen for component quality upgrades. I might expect the structure for the SG's to be more like a big goal for a minimal campaign (60 page journal, 2 characters, some world stuff) with smaller goals to expand it into a full campaign (220 page journal, 4 characters, etc.)

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Antares Rangers wrote:
Victor Mancha wrote:
The4thJawa wrote:
In the Nemesis campaign there's a stretch goal which only got unlocked partially because there were backers who voiced their disinterest in the goal. So only 20 pages were unlocked, but we still got a 80 page comic/campaign book as a gift to backers.


That was very nice.


um, actually, the gift was an ADDITIONAL 80 pages (partly because AR had additional profits they wanted to give back to backers).
Everyone got the new 80 page gift and the 20 page intro book. But only those who pledged/purchased the add-on 80 page book got that additional content too.


Right, it was even better.
 
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