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Subject: Farms OP? rss

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Dan Smith
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Keep in mind this is my opinion after 1 play. And I know everyone always assumes people asking questions are complete noobs at boardgames. So know that I am not a complete noob at boardgames.

Farms, are the hexes that give the reduction token. Once you have it, you no longer pay for any costs of your token's color. So if you have a blue farm and a hex costs two blue cubes and a white cube. it only costs you a white cube.


There is one way to get the Lvl 1 farm on your first turn, and one way to get it on your second turn.

-To get it on your first turn, you must be the third or fourth player, and at least two players must get a tile adjacent to it that matches its cost exactly. Then you can grab it for free. It would be pretty dumb to do that, but if it happens, they asked for it.

-The second option, if you are not playing with altruistic opponents, is to grab the goddess of love on your first turn. Which grants you five cubes of the color of your choice. Then buy it on your next turn.

In the game I played, the second player did option #2. My problem is that the farms doesn't just reduce the colored cost. It negates it completely. Meaning that player will never have to pay ANY red cost again for the rest of the game. That player also happened to have the green farm be revealed on her turn. So she bought it as well.

Here are my beefs with farms.



1. The discount given is too big, for something that you can get as your first tiles.

2. I think it was bad design that the green farm requires red to purchase. Meaning that whoever got the red farm gets the green one at a discount. Making it harder for other players to get on even footing.

3. Late game, hexes start costing a lot of cubes. And getting cubes in this game is not easy. You can only get them by grabbing a tile that has cubes on it. A player with multiple farms just zips through the late game, buying pretty much whatever they want.

4. Certain hexes worth 3 points, require you to sacrifice 3 of your own cubes. This is a steep cost. Because you do have to pay for the hex itself, so it effectively costs you 6 cubes (You can have a maximum of ten). If I have a farm or two, I will naturally tend to have extra cubes of the color of my farm, since I never spend them. So it's easier for me to get it than other players, on top of the fact that I likely get a discount on the hex as well.

5. If you are playing a two player game, the goddess of love is among your gods, and there is a farm available. The right play seems to ALWAYS be to grab the goddess then grab the farm. (And make sure to get at least one blue cube to insure that you can buy the second farm when it shows up.)

6. The game is about choices. But when you can afford any tile. There isn't really any choice involved. You just get whatever is worth the most points.



I think wild cubes costs were put in the game to try and mitigate that. Because when you're allowed to pay a cube of any color, no discount can be applied. Unfortunately, the fact that you can pay it with any color, means that it doesn't make it any harder to buy if you own a farm. You skip the payment of your farm's color, then use whichever cube you have lying around to pay the wild card cost.

Agree, disagree?

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Ben Hodgson
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I'm not sure how powerful the farms are. They are certainly helpful if purchased early, and depending on the tiles you take they are likely to effectively save you a cube every turn or two. I have seen people get a lot of farms and do well, but I think that is relatively unlikely if the other players are out to get them (the farms, and the player with all the farms!) too.

To prevent a player getting all of the farms, it would be easy to add in some variant like farms cost an extra wild cube per existing farm you have for instance. Also, all those farms take up yellow space, and that isn't always so easy to fit into your pyramid.

You could also try testing it with farms being worth 0 VP rather than 1 VP each, but my sense is that would be too weak as I have gone head to head with a player who got most of the farms and scores have been very similar. I want to spend as many turns gaining 2VP or 3VP per tile as possible, and taking farms extends the number of 1VP turns I am taking to hopefully increase the number of 2VP and 3VP turns you can take later - an investment, but I'm not sure it is that OP.

If they are slightly too good, and a player is lucky enough to get all of them without being contested due to luck of the draw say, then it would appear they have been lucky. Is that such a big deal? If so, then feel free to mitigate that via a suitable adjustment, and see how that impacts the game. I'm not sure that much is needed, but I am loving possible variants and adjustments that people are coming up with. :-)
 
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Ulf Bengtsson
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Phaseshifter wrote:


Agree, disagree?



I agree that they are powerful and seem almost too good at first glance.
But after 4 games of this I have seen people win without a single farm, and I have also seen people win with all four farms. So if you ask me it's not an OP strategy to try to go all-in on farms.

(Yesterday I won a game without any farms against someone who had all 4 farms. Granted we both had the same score, but I had the most Worshipers and they had almost none. (So I won on tie-breaker).

/wolf
 
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Dan Smith
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Redking wrote:
I'm not sure how powerful the farms are. They are certainly helpful if purchased early, and depending on the tiles you take they are likely to effectively save you a cube every turn or two. I have seen people get a lot of farms and do well, but I think that is relatively unlikely if the other players are out to get them (the farms, and the player with all the farms!) too.

To prevent a player getting all of the farms, it would be easy to add in some variant like farms cost an extra wild cube per existing farm you have for instance. Also, all those farms take up yellow space, and that isn't always so easy to fit into your pyramid.

You could also try testing it with farms being worth 0 VP rather than 1 VP each, but my sense is that would be too weak as I have gone head to head with a player who got most of the farms and scores have been very similar. I want to spend as many turns gaining 2VP or 3VP per tile as possible, and taking farms extends the number of 1VP turns I am taking to hopefully increase the number of 2VP and 3VP turns you can take later - an investment, but I'm not sure it is that OP.

If they are slightly too good, and a player is lucky enough to get all of them without being contested due to luck of the draw say, then it would appear they have been lucky. Is that such a big deal? If so, then feel free to mitigate that via a suitable adjustment, and see how that impacts the game. I'm not sure that much is needed, but I am loving possible variants and adjustments that people are coming up with. :-)


Well, I've seen someone yesterday with 3 farms not winning. However, he made some bad choices. Buying two white hexes but not getting the temples, which would have gotten him the 11 points since no one could buy them faster than he did. So he essentially had two dead hexes.

I think my biggest issue is the syngery the farms create.

For example, buying a volcano has you destroy cubes in play. Which is bad for everyone, since everyone is starved for cubes late game. Except you, because you don't need as many cubes and likely already have a bunch.

Same thing for villages. Nothing synergies with villages, except always spending less cubes.
 
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Srdj
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Have you played a few games of Orbis to have these conclusions? If after one play you feel like that, then try it a few more times. People have played this game many times and this game has been play-tested a lot I would assume...

...and I've heard that there were instances where someone was going for the strategy to just get farms so that they don't have to pay for cubes anymore. They succeeded in their strategy and didn't have to pay for majority of the colors, however they still lost in the end.

...you only have one turn, even if you take only farms you still leave cubes for others to pick up which balances the game and in most cases people almost always have enough cubes to get something...

...everyone finishes the pyramid at the same time, so everyone will have completed everything...it's not like you have some advantage with building farms and actually finish the pyramid before anyone else.

...also, its not every game that you would be able to even get only farms because chances are other players will snatch it before you.

Try going with the farm strategy and let us know how many times you actually win the game.

IMO it's not overpowered.
 
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Dan Smith
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Cro1 wrote:
Have you played a few games of Orbis to have these conclusions? If after one play you feel like that, then try it a few more times. People have played this game many times and this game has been play-tested a lot I would assume...

...and I've heard that there were instances where someone was going for the strategy to just get farms so that they don't have to pay for cubes anymore. They succeeded in their strategy and didn't have to pay for majority of the colors, however they still lost in the end.

...you only have one turn, even if you take only farms you still leave cubes for others to pick up which balances the game and in most cases people almost always have enough cubes to get something...

...everyone finishes the pyramid at the same time, so everyone will have completed everything...it's not like you have some advantage with building farms and actually finish the pyramid before anyone else.

...also, its not every game that you would be able to even get only farms because chances are other players will snatch it before you.

Try going with the farm strategy and let us know how many times you actually win the game.

IMO it's not overpowered.


Even if it was possible to finish your pyramid first, or faster. I don't see why that would be beneficial.

I did try to go the farm strategy, but the player who had the most had them be revealed on his turn. I had cubes that would pay for the second one, but then someone took an adjacent tile that put a cube on it, and he snatched it for free.

Everyone gives cubes when they take a hex. Players with farms however have more choices because they don't need to pick hexes purely for cubes as often as another player would.

But I'm still testing it. However, it feels bad during the end game where everyone has to compromise on what they get except 1 or two players. (Though I feel the late game generally feels bad for everyone since we all feel cornered)
 
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Richard Lupino
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Not as powerful as you think...don't forget they don't count as wilds so you will always need worshipers for those and the level 3 tiles that are worth 3 victory points often require wilds ...plus don't forget if somebody gets a red farm for instance...the other players can simply start buying the tiles that have red cost leaving behind the costs of the farms you don't have. If left completely unchecked I suppose it could be OP but then again if the other players just let you do what you want they probably don't understand the game.
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