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Subject: Officially Banned Combinations (Faction Mat/Player Mat) rss

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Jamey Stegmaier
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After much consideration and mounting evidence, I've decided that the Crimea/Patriotic faction mat/player mat combination will henceforth be banned. This joins the other banned combination, Rusviet/Industrial, both for the same reason: An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.

If you draw into either of these combinations during setup, return your player mat to the pool and gain another. Brand-new Scythe players may ignore the banned combinations for their first game.

I've officially posted this on the FAQ: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
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Steven St. John
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So what happens when Rusviet-Industrial plays Crimea-Patriotic in a 2-player game? Sounds like an interesting illegal street fight.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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That would be a fast game!
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Steven St. John
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jameystegmaier wrote:
That would be a fast game!
You must mistake me for an experienced player.

Well, I'm experienced in that I've played a lot. But I've never mapped out the 14-turn solution.
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Gastel Etswane
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jameystegmaier wrote:
An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.
Does that mean the game is solved?
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Jamey Stegmaier
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No, it's a game, not a puzzle--it cannot be solved.
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Stephen Werness
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Gastel wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.
Does that mean the game is solved?
Lol
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jeffrey james
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jameystegmaier wrote:
After much consideration and mounting evidence, I've decided that the Crimea/Patriotic faction mat/player mat combination will henceforth be banned. This joins the other banned combination, Rusviet/Industrial, both for the same reason: An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.

If you draw into either of these combinations during setup, return your player mat to the pool and gain another. Brand-new Scythe players may ignore the banned combinations for their first game.

I've officially posted this on the FAQ: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
Thanks for doing this and keeping this game alive and vibrant. Such a great game.
Please consider banning Russviet/Innovative as well as Saxonia/Militant. Those combinations are not far behind the Crimea/Patriotic issue.

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Lucas Fox
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I must be terrible at this game. Most of our game last 30 - 35 rounds.

Ouch.

Time to play more and get better.
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Richard Young
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jeff3316 wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
After much consideration and mounting evidence, I've decided that the Crimea/Patriotic faction mat/player mat combination will henceforth be banned. This joins the other banned combination, Rusviet/Industrial, both for the same reason: An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.

If you draw into either of these combinations during setup, return your player mat to the pool and gain another. Brand-new Scythe players may ignore the banned combinations for their first game.

I've officially posted this on the FAQ: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
Thanks for doing this and keeping this game alive and vibrant. Such a great game.
Please consider banning Russviet/Innovative as well as Saxonia/Militant. Those combinations are not far behind the Crimea/Patriotic issue.

And here we go...
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SJS1971 wrote:
So what happens when Rusviet-Industrial plays Crimea-Patriotic in a 2-player game? Sounds like an interesting illegal street fight.
Already been analyzed!

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2099004/winner-patriotic-cr...
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Jamey Stegmaier
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"Please consider banning Russviet/Innovative as well as Saxonia/Militant. Those combinations are not far behind the Crimea/Patriotic issue."

If you and others can show me that those combinations can consistently and without interference end the game with a win in no more than 14-16 turns, I will certainly consider it.
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Dennis _
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Thanks for the update! Are there any combinations (officially) considered to be underpowered, too?
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John Williams
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I was reading on the FAQ and see the RUSVIET variant but do not see the
Criema variant. Is it posted some where else?

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Jamey Stegmaier
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Apparently my Wordpress cache isn't caching. It's there, but it hasn't revealed it yet (I'm not sure why).
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Jordan Booth
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Interesting, looking at my last couple of games I see that i beat Industrial Rusviet with Militant Saxony, and Patriotic Crimean lost one as well. Both OP combos came in 3rd in their games. This is not really useful data because it was during games 1 and 3 of Fenris campaign so the unique game goals and length probably throw it off. I only mention it because last summer one of our games had Patriotic Crimeans nearly double any one other player's score.

So I guess we know who the experienced player of our group is.
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Tomas Gudmundsson
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I am very interested in this topic. I wonder what is the best way to measure optimal plays, so you can determine, 14 turns with these combinations of player mats and factions is all you need. Obviously, experience helps, but experienced players can still be interrupted and make mistakes and play non-optimally.

If we would assume optimal player (or an experienced player), minimal interruptions (every player would delay their fighting until needing one or two stars at the end), and possibly ignore all rewards from encounters. Then one could try and figure out how many turns are needed to end the game.

Granted, these observations would not be a true representation of Scythe. However, it might give us some sort of mathematical ranking of the combinations.

This (theoretical) list of player mat and faction combinations could then be used to judge its strength. This would be a very rudimentary list, but to those who are extremely competitive it could be useful.

I don't think this is in the spirit of games at all, to try and "figure it out", like Jamey says, this is a game not a puzzle. But with variable player powers and different action combinations per player, players are generally interested in figuring out what is best, and what is worse.

It is understandable, partly due to the popularity of this game, and also when players play this game tens if not hundreds of times, to say, well you got this combo with that you, really had an uphill battle. Adversely, oh you got this combo, that has a possibility of getting 6 stars in 19 turns whereas all other combos played this game need a minimum of 21.

Having said all this, I am not the one that will go and do this list. And I must say that some of the modules in Rise of Fenris and Wind Gambit affect it enough that it doesn't bother me.

Still interested though.
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Actually giving Rusviet/Industrial or Crimea/Patriotic to new players in an experienced group may help them a bit in their first game. Just to not be massacred and never want to play again.
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Duo Maxwell
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jameystegmaier wrote:
After much consideration and mounting evidence, I've decided that the Crimea/Patriotic faction mat/player mat combination will henceforth be banned. This joins the other banned combination, Rusviet/Industrial, both for the same reason: An experienced Scythe player can complete a game of Scythe in 14 turns with these combinations, which is so far ahead of the standard 18-22 turn average that it doesn't give other players a fair chance.

If you draw into either of these combinations during setup, return your player mat to the pool and gain another. Brand-new Scythe players may ignore the banned combinations for their first game.

I've officially posted this on the FAQ: https://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
Sorry if this question was asked am answered before. In the future will these combinations be re-balanced to make the combinations viable ?

Love this game and since I’m a novice, I am not sure I ever encountered any issues with certain combinations.
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Ahmad Siddiqi
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horizons wrote:
Actually giving Rusviet/Industrial or Crimea/Patriotic to new players in an experienced group may help them a bit in their first game. Just to not be massacred and never want to play again.
If they're totally new, it won't help them much, unless they're also given some guidance on strategy...
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Steven St. John
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ahmadms wrote:
horizons wrote:
Actually giving Rusviet/Industrial or Crimea/Patriotic to new players in an experienced group may help them a bit in their first game. Just to not be massacred and never want to play again.
If they're totally new, it won't help them much, unless they're also given some guidance on strategy...
That’s the thing. Even the “banned” combos require a lot of planning and strategic thinking to exploit their strength. In my experience even most gamers aren’t going to be doing homework to prep for game night.

I own the game and play it a lot. I might avoid those combos for myself, but if I’m playing with my (good player) teens or my game group, I wouldn’t care if an opponent drew those combos. If someone figured out the way to exploit the combo at the table (no home prep) I’d consider them to have earned the victory.

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Jamey Stegmaier
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"In the future will these combinations be re-balanced to make the combinations viable?"

I don't think so. They just happen to fall into a sweet spot of several different combinations (faction ability, board position, and player mat configuration).

Maybe we'll find on the modular board that they're less powerful--we'll see.
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Mike Vande Ven Jr.
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FYI, to help our group keep straight which combos are banned, I have created this little reference card that I keep in the box:

Banned Faction/Player Mat Combos
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BC
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Putting this here while I try to think of something really clever...
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Xeserox wrote:
I must be terrible at this game. Most of our game last 30 - 35 rounds.

Ouch.

Time to play more and get better.
I thought we were pretty good at the game, until we played the Wind Gambit and used the "Doomsday Clock" Resolution tile...time ran out and we felt that we had barely gotten started!
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Josiah Fiscus
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The Scythe Randomizer has been updated to include this change. Upload is pending approval:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/168851/scythe-setup-rando...
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