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[21.6] German Robust Units
• When eliminated in combat, and without a No Supply
marker, it can be replaced by a round Kampfgruppe
counter randomly picked from the draw cup (if
available), the round KG unit completing the combat
results, if any


Q1 )
Situation :
ROBUST UNIT does not select Step loss in "D" or "DR"
In the process of retreating due to "DS" or "DD", exit was blocked and eliminated.
Can I use the ROBUST UNIT's ability to put in kg markers?


[21.7.1] KG Improvement: When a reduced German
unit stacks with a Kampfgruppe, it can be immediately
Improved (9.2) for free to its full-strength side. Return
the Kampfgruppe to the draw cup.


Q2 )
is this ability only used in the [9.0] Organization Phase?
Or can I use it freely while playing the player turn?




[21.7.2] KG Breakdown: At the start of your Movement
Phase you may flip one (only) full-strength “Robust”
(21.6) German unit to its reduced side; pick up a Kampfgruppe
from the draw cup and stack it with the newlyreduced
unit.

Q3 )
Robust units were stacked with other units.
First, use this ability to create an overstack.
And can you move them apart and avoid overstack penalties?



Q4 )
Situation :
It is now [24.4] Rainy Skies Weather.
Unit A and Unit B attack unit C together.
UNIT A crossed an ordinary hexside and attacked C
UNIT B crossed the river hex side and attacked C.

UNIT A can do Multi-Hex Advance
UNIT B can not do MULTI-HEX Advance
Is it correct?

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Carl Paradis
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manu20 wrote:
[21.6] German Robust Units
• When eliminated in combat, and without a No Supply
marker, it can be replaced by a round Kampfgruppe
counter randomly picked from the draw cup (if
available), the round KG unit completing the combat
results, if any


Q1 )
Situation :
ROBUST UNIT does not select Step loss in "D" or "DR"
In the process of retreating due to "DS" or "DD", exit was blocked and eliminated.
Can I use the ROBUST UNIT's ability to put in kg markers?


Yes. As soon as eliminated you can use the KG unit, but sometimes it is not worth it as the KG unit will also be eliminated. Ex: if sourrounded by to layers of EZOCs, the unit will be eliminated when retreating in the first EZOC, and the KG eliminated when completing the retreat into another EZOC.

manu20 wrote:

[21.7.1] KG Improvement: When a reduced German
unit stacks with a Kampfgruppe, it can be immediately
Improved (9.2) for free to its full-strength side. Return
the Kampfgruppe to the draw cup.


Q2 )
is this ability only used in the [9.0] Organization Phase?
Or can I use it freely while playing the player turn?


The rules say "immediately", so yes freely during the turn.


manu20 wrote:

[21.7.2] KG Breakdown: At the start of your Movement
Phase you may flip one (only) full-strength “Robust”
(21.6) German unit to its reduced side; pick up a Kampfgruppe
from the draw cup and stack it with the newlyreduced
unit.

Q3 )
Robust units were stacked with other units.
First, use this ability to create an overstack.
And can you move them apart and avoid overstack penalties?


Yes, the stacking restrictions are enforced only at the END of the movement phase, check rule 13.3.4.

manu20 wrote:

Q4 )
Situation :
It is now [24.4] Rainy Skies Weather.
Unit A and Unit B attack unit C together.
UNIT A crossed an ordinary hexside and attacked C
UNIT B crossed the river hex side and attacked C.

UNIT A can do Multi-Hex Advance
UNIT B can not do MULTI-HEX Advance
Is it correct?


Yes, this is correct! meeple
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Martin Åkerlund
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manu20 wrote:
[21.6] German Robust Units
• When eliminated in combat, and without a No Supply
marker, it can be replaced by a round Kampfgruppe
counter randomly picked from the draw cup (if
available), the round KG unit completing the combat
results, if any


Q1 )
Situation :
ROBUST UNIT does not select Step loss in "D" or "DR"
In the process of retreating due to "DS" or "DD", exit was blocked and eliminated.
Can I use the ROBUST UNIT's ability to put in kg markers?

In your example, where the unit's retreat path is blocked, there's no point in adding a KG, since it too will always be eliminated for failure to retreat.

manu20 wrote:

Q4 )
Situation :
It is now [24.4] Rainy Skies Weather.
Unit A and Unit B attack unit C together.
UNIT A crossed an ordinary hexside and attacked C
UNIT B crossed the river hex side and attacked C.

UNIT A can do Multi-Hex Advance
UNIT B can not do MULTI-HEX Advance
Is it correct?

If you mean Unit B attacks across the river, it can't advance at all.

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Thank you for your kind answers.
Q3) and Q4 is still questionable.

RULE 13.3.4 SAY
"You can not voluntarily overstack units."

Q1)
Is not the action I mentioned in Q3 voluntarily overstack?
So what does voluntarily overstack mean?


Q2)
I am based on 13.3.4 can not voluntarily overstack
in my opinion
This game, unlike Russia,
Unsupplied unit was overstacked by myself and to the Destroyed Units Box I thought sending technique was forbidden.

Is my opinion correct?





RULE 24.4 SAY
"There is no Advance after Combat across Rivers."
BUT RULE 18.0 AND 18.1 AND TEC SAY
ONLY
Units cannot make a multi-hex advance into hexes
containing an enemy unit, across Prohibited hexsides,
off the map, or during Mud weather, or across Rivers
in Rainy Skies (see the Terrain Effects Chart).

Q3)

It seems to be forbid only about multi hex.
Therefore, I think in rule 24.4 that the multi-hex phrase is missing due to an error,
across Rivers in Rainy Skies is related only to "multi hex adv" and I think it is irrelevant to the normal "Adv".

Is my opinion correct?


 
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Martin Åkerlund
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Q3 is not questionable because the designer just answered it!

That said, I can somewhat understand your concern if you only read 13.3.4.

Volontarily overstack means to choose to (or mistakenly) stack more than the allowed total at the end of a movement phase. The key phrase here is on p.15 : "When multiple friendly units remain in the same hex at the end of any Phase or Step, it is called stacking." Overstacking that is not volontary is typically the effect of retreats.

I'm afraid I don't understand your second question. What do you mean by "Deliberately sending non-deployed units.."?


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My English is a mess and I modified it a little easier to understand.
Still, it may not be understandable.
I am sorry that English is a mess.
 
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I understand what you mean and you have a point in that 14.8-14.8.1 can be a little confusing.

That said, it's quite clear from 24.4 and the TEC that you can't advance across rivers at all during rainy weather. The YES column on the TEC denotes that rivers stop advance (i.e. a multi-hex advance) in all weather types. The extra comment on rivers and rainy weather that says "Rainy no crossing" wouldn't be necessary if it only referred to multi-hex advances.

In summary: never multi-hex advance across rivers. During rainy weather, no advance at all across rivers.

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Thank you for your reply.

If so, it is written in [14.8.1]


[14.8.1] Multi-Hex Advance: Although the first hex
advanced into must be a defending unit's just-vacated
hex, units may advance a second hex within the
following restrictions:
• Units can not make a multi-hex advance into hexes
containing an enemy unit, across Prohibited hexsides,
off the map, or during Mud weather, or across Rivers
in Rainy Skies
(see the Terrain Effects Chart).



It is very confusing that there is no content about it in 14.8



[14.8] Advance After Combat
Following the retreat / removal from the map of defending
units after the application of a D, DR, DS, or DD combat
result, if the target hex was completely vacated, the attacking
units may Advance After Combat. This means
that the attacking units may move into the Defender's
newly-vacated hex and possibly beyond.
• Advance After Combat expends no MPs, nor do EZOC
affect it in any way; you just count the hexes.
• White-strength units, Forts and Beachheads can not
Advance After Combat.
• On a "D" combat result, you can advance only if the hex
was vacated by retreat, not by unit elimination (14.7).


So I think TEC table RiverHexside
"YES" and "NO" are probably reversed.

Rainy Skies in the TEC table
"YES" and "NO" are also reversed.



And still this problem is confusing.

I am based on 13.3.4 can not voluntarily overstack
in my opinion
This game, unlike Russia,
Unsupplied unit was overstacked by myself and to the Destroyed Units Box I thought sending technique was forbidden.

 
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Brastias wrote:

I understand what you mean and you have a point in that 14.8-14.8.1 can be a little confusing.

That said, it's quite clear from 24.4 and the TEC that you can't advance across rivers at all during rainy weather. The YES column on the TEC denotes that rivers stop advance (i.e. a multi-hex advance) in all weather types. The extra comment on rivers and rainy weather that says "Rainy no crossing" wouldn't be necessary if it only referred to multi-hex advances.

In summary: never multi-hex advance across rivers. During rainy weather, no advance at all across rivers.



This is correct. meeple
 
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Then the rainy skies are not a river side issue
Only rainy skies get confused.


[14.8.1] Multi-Hex Advance: Although the first hex
advanced into must be a Defending unit’s just-vacated
hex, units may further advance a second hex within the
following restrictions:
• Units cannot make a multi-hex advance into hexes
containing an enemy unit, across Prohibited hexsides,
off the map, or during Mud weather, or across Rivers
in Rainy Skies
(see the Terrain Effects Chart).



[24.2] Mud Weather
It represents wet ground and cold climate
conditions: awful weather to wage war.
• Represented by a brown-colored turn box on the Game
Turn Track.
• Major Offensives last two weeks.
• There is no Second Combat Phase.
• All units have a maximum of 3 MPs and cannot be
Paradropped (13.6.7).
• There is no multi-hex Advance After Combat.
• Event cards with an aircraft icon ( ) cannot be used
this turn.



[24.4] Rainy Skies
It represents miserable fighting weather.
• Represented by a Rainy marker put on the Game Turn
Track.
• Major Offensives will last one less week.
• The Allied player gets one less Shock! marker for each
of his Player Turns.
• All units have a maximum of 3MPs and cannot be
Paradropped (13.6.7).
• Event cards with an aircraft icon ( ) cannot be used
this turn.
• There is no Advance after Combat across Rivers.
• The Defender’s force gets a one-column shift to the left
on the CRT.




Although the manual does not prohibit the usual Multi-hex Advance of Rainy skies anywhere


tec table in rainy skies
Stop Advance "Yes" and No River crossing




If the tec table is correct
Aside from the river crossing problem, Rainy skies can not do multi-hex advance like mud

So why did not you write such a phrase in 14.8.1 and 24.4?

 
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manu20 wrote:

So why did not you write such a phrase in 14.8.1 and 24.4?[/b]


OK... Try designing a complex wargame, writing the rules in English (I am French-speaking), and make no errors and then get back to me.

This ruleset is Version #66 (!) and was proofread by over a dozen people. Sadly perfection is hard to reach. soblue

Do note that it's the first time since the game was made that this question was asked. So for my next game design you should be in the testers group: heck, you'll get the game for free, too! meeple
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Thank you for reply (Carl & Martin)
Now the long and long rainy problem has been resolved.
I still have voluntarily overstack problems.



There was such advanced technology in the Russian front and it was accepted. (Actually very useful in games)
"This is what the Russians have to do with the supply units that they can not get back to supply, they can avoid losing two victory points by stacking the two out of supply units in their movement phase, since the eliminated overstacked unit goes to the destroyed unit box as opposed to the surrendered unit box? The Russians would still lose one victory point for the remaining unit when it is removed. "



Q1 )
In this game
"You can not voluntarily overstack units"
Based on the sentence, I think it's impossible to use
Is my opinion correct?



I understand your pain in the transmission process of French and English because I suffer constantly from the problem of language.
I live in Korea with poor English.
But can I still take the great responsibility of becoming a tester player?

Thank you for making great games and constantly supporting users. meeple
 
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Although I agree that some of the rules could have been phrased differently, I think they are clear enough in this case to see how the rule should be applied. It's only the very last part of the last sentence 14.8.1 that should have been skipped.

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manu20 wrote:

Q1 )
In this game
"You can not voluntarily overstack units"
Based on the sentence, I think it's impossible to use
Is my opinion correct?


Yes this is correct. Not the same game or scale.


manu20 wrote:
I understand your pain in the transmission process of French and English because I suffer constantly from the problem of language.
But can I still take the great responsibility of becoming a tester player?


In fact given your status I think you'll be an excellent proofer. Different sets of eyes are a godsend. meeple
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to martin

Not only 14.8.1 skip also 24.4 are defective.
There is clearly a problem between 24.2 and 24.4, starting at 24.0.

24.2 says this.
There is no multi-hex Advance After Combat.

However, 24.4 Says only
There is no Advance after Combat across Rivers.
That's it.
There is no word about "no multi-hex Advance".


to carl

Thank for your kind answers and kind words.
 
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There's a difference between Mud weather and Rainy weather. During mud there's no multi-hex advance at all. During Rainy weather, there is.

During Dry weather you can advance across rivers (just not do a multi-hex advance). During Rainy weather you can't advance across at all.

 
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I was confused again.
The Riverside issue has been resolved.
But return to rainy skies.

The tec table excludes the riverside problem
Just rainy weather itself
stop advance? It says "yes".
Aside from the riverside problem, multi-hex advance itself is just as impossible as mud.





So I thought the tec table was wrong.
(Again, the Riverside issue in the tec table is not important right now, but rainy skies itself says "stop advance" "yes".)

So then rainy skies will only the fact that multi-hex advances are basically impossible, like the mud weather, additionally and there is no advance in riverside.

Then it is like mud, except for the river side problem.
But why does it differ from mud?
If the tec table is correct, I can not understand it.
 
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I think you have misunderstood the "Stops Advance?" column on the TEC. It shows if terrain (or weather) stops you from advancing an additional hex after advancing into the hex previously occupied by the defending unit.

From 14.8.1, Multi-hex advance: "A unit must cease its Advance after Combat upon entering/crossing any terrain type that stops an advance (see the TEC’s “Stops Advance?” column)." That is, after you advance into terrain that stops advance, you may not move any further.

 
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no. I misunderstood the river crossing problem at first,
but the stop advance? The problem is not misunderstood.

Look at the photos I linked to.
rainy skies (apart from the river crossing problem) stop advance? Yes.
That means you have to stop after advancing, that is, forbid multi-hex advance.
This is like mud weather.


SO

If MULTI-HEX ADVANCE is not possible in RAINY SKIES
the manual is wrong

"24.2 says this.
There is no multi-hex Advance After Combat.

However, 24.4 Says only
There is no Advance after Combat across Rivers.
That's it.
There is no word about "no multi-hex Advance"."
(In that case, "no multi-hex Advance" should be added to 24.4.)


If MULTI-HEX ADVANCE is possible in RAINY SKIES
The TEC table is Wrong.
(In that case, should change the stop advance of RAINY SKIES to "NO".)



If the manual is correct and the TEC table is correct
I do not understand.
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Martin Åkerlund
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I (finally) understand your point - and you are right - either the rules are incomplete/wrong or the TEC is incorrect. Odd that noone seems to have noticed that before. I typically go with the rule books when they differ from the play aids, but it would certainly be interesting to hear from Carl what the correct rule is in this case. Let's see if he shows up.


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Brastias wrote:

I (finally) understand your point - and you are right - either the rules are incomplete/wrong or the TEC is incorrect. Odd that noone seems to have noticed that before. I typically go with the rule books when they differ from the play aids, but it would certainly be interesting to hear from Carl what the correct rule is in this case. Let's see if he shows up.


The TEC Says:

Rivers = Stops Advance: YES (Rainy no crossing)

MUD Weather = Stops Advance: YES - So obviously non multi-hex advance possible.

Rainy Skies = Stops Advance: YES (No River Crossing) - So obviously no multi-hex advance possible.


The Rules Say:

24.2 Mud Weather = There is no multi-hex Advance After Combat.

24.4 Rainy Skies = There is no Advance after Combat across Rivers.


You have to combine both the TEC and the Rules to have all the effects listed.

In fact I should have removed the "There is no multi-hex Advance After combat" to the Mud Weather 24.4 rule, as it could confuse somebody (you in this case) and is not really needed, since the TEC takes care of this with the "Stop Advance" column. The only difference between Rainy and Mud is that in Rainy you cannot cross rivers during Advance after combat.
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