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Subject: Deepening pro-Russian goofiness. rss

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Christina Kahrl
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Well, first there was the Trump administration's decision last month to start removing sanctions on Putin crony Oleg Deripaska, the guy holding Mr. Manafort's leash while being owed $10-25 million by Manafort. Sure, no biggie, the guy just collaborated in an attack on our system of government, no big deal.

Well, yesterday we also found out that former Republican congressman Jim Bridenstine got sanctions lifted by the Trump administration on the former vice premier of Russia, who had been barred from entering this country for his role in Russia's invasion and annexation of the Crimea, in violation of international law. Mr. Rogozin is being invited in his current capacity as the head of Russia's space agency by Mr. Bridenstine, the current head of NASA, to visit NASA and speak at Rice University, his alma mater. Mr. Rogozin is also known for his years of work on anti-American, antisemitic, and anti-LGBT policies in his own country.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/01/nasa-sanctioned-ru...

And of course, yesterday we were also treated to Mr. Trump's bizarre version of history, where he not only justified Russia's invasion of Afghanistan as a defense against terrorism, he blamed it for the collapse of the Soviet Union:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/02/trumps-bi...
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What really galls me me about this whole aspect of this administration is that they have convinced a segment of the U.S. population that Russia is a trusted ally who has our best interests second only to their own. "The bear eating your leg is actually quite tame!"
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DiamondSylph wrote:
Well, first there was the Trump administration's decision last month to start removing sanctions on Putin crony Oleg Deripaska, the guy holding Mr. Manafort's leash while being owed $10-25 million by Manafort. Sure, no biggie, the guy just collaborated in an attack on our system of government, no big deal.

Well, yesterday we also found out that former Republican congressman Jeff Bridenstine got sanctions lifted by the Trump administration on the former vice premier of Russia, who had been barred from entering this country for his role in Russia's invasion and annexation of the Crimea, in violation of international law. Mr. Rogozin is being invited in his current capacity as the head of Russia's space agency by Mr. Bridenstine, the current head of NASA, to visit NASA and speak at Rice University, his alma mater. Mr. Rogozin is also known for his years of work on anti-American, antisemitic, and anti-LGBT policies in his own country.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/01/nasa-sanctioned-ru...

And of course, yesterday we were also treated to Mr. Trump's bizarre version of history, where he not only justified Russia's invasion of Afghanistan as a defense against terrorism, he blamed it for the collapse of the Soviet Union:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/02/trumps-bi...


This was the most egregious claim from The Donald's view on history

Quote:
“The reason Russia was in Afghanistan was because terrorists were going into Russia.”


And naturally this is a bunch of horseshit-as pointed out in the same article

Quote:
This is simply not true. The Soviet Union ventured into Afghanistan as part of its effort to prop up communism abroad, not because terrorists were striking the Soviet homeland.

“The most shameless Soviet propagandist never claimed that Afghan terrorists were attacking Russia,” said Barnett Rubin, an Afghanistan expert at New York University. “You can read all Soviet media in the 1980s and never find anything this ridiculous.”

There was ultimately a problem with extremism in Afghanistan, but it developed largely after the USSR left, and the mujahideen groups that sprang up to fight the Soviets devolved into the Taliban.



But the sad part is that a large part of his GOP/Conservative supporters will go along because it comes from their Beloved Orange Leader.
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Christina Kahrl
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TheChin! wrote:
What really galls me me about this whole aspect of this administration is that they have convinced a segment of the U.S. population that Russia is a trusted ally who has our best interests second only to their own. "The bear eating your leg is actually quite tame!"


It's uglier still when you consider that U.S. intelligence services universally agreed, "it's a bear, and it is eating your leg."

For this, the President literally referred to them as Nazis.
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Edgar the Woebringer
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TheChin! wrote:
What really galls me me about this whole aspect of this administration is that they have convinced a segment of the U.S. population that Russia is a trusted ally who has our best interests second only to their own. "The bear eating your leg is actually quite tame!"


That segment hardly needed convincing. They will root for their team no matter what (which is unfortunately why they tend to win elections).

If the Democrats had been implicated in even a tenth of this stuff with Russia you can bet "Conservatives" would be calling for revolution.

You can replace "Russia" with <insert our new friend here> in other words. If Saddam were still alive he'd be looked upon just as kindly by the current GOP as long as he supported them against the true enemy, the Democrats.
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"There was ultimately a problem with extremism in Afghanistan, but it developed largely after the USSR left, and the mujahideen groups that sprang up to fight the Soviets devolved into the Taliban."

You missed off personally , trained funded and armed by Ollie North and Regan , aided on the ground by American special forces .

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.
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Quote:
There was ultimately a problem with extremism in Afghanistan, but it developed largely after the USSR left, and the mujahideen groups that sprang up to fight the Soviets devolved into the Taliban.


Wasn't that the Mujahadeen that Americal gave millions to as part of Operation Cyclone?

Edit: A tad ninja'd by growlley!
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J.D. Hall
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growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.
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remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.
Probably means the Afghani people. We abandoned them to the then armed resulting Taliban.
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David Dearlove
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remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.

The Taliban won. Other Mujahadeen groups got no US support against them. South Vietnam was conquered by the North.
The Us guaranteed the intregrity of the Ukraine
The US is a faithless ally.
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J.D. Hall
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DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.

The Taliban won. Other Mujahadeen groups got no US support from them. South Vietnam was conquered by the North.
The Us guaranteed the intrity of the Ukraine
The US is a faithless ally.

The US wasn't fighting the Taliban, it was supporting an insurgency against the Soviets -- who lost, and left. So the Afghans got rid of the Russians. What came afterwards was up to them, wasn't it? Or are they still just children, needing the firm hand and guidance of the British Empire? The Afghanis were just silly to kick the Brits out.

Yes, South Vietnam was conquered by the North. As I said, the South Vietnamese would have loved to have been abandoned in the same manner as the Afghanis, but it didn't work out. America's not like the Brits -- we've lost a war or two along the way. Can't be perfect like the Anglish.

The US and NATO guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine -- most of it is still, uhm, integral. You want to start World War III over Ukraine, be my guest.
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edgarthewoebringer wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
What really galls me me about this whole aspect of this administration is that they have convinced a segment of the U.S. population that Russia is a trusted ally who has our best interests second only to their own. "The bear eating your leg is actually quite tame!"


That segment hardly needed convincing. They will root for their team no matter what (which is unfortunately why they tend to win elections).

If the Democrats had been implicated in even a tenth of this stuff with Russia you can bet "Conservatives" would be calling for revolution.

You can replace "Russia" with <insert our new friend here> in other words. If Saddam were still alive he'd be looked upon just as kindly by the current GOP as long as he supported them against the true enemy, the Democrats.


Apparently the defense currently from our current rightist friends is that the bear is really small.

Seriously. I saw a quote from one of his The_Donald supporters claiming that the Russian interference, if true, couldn't be that bad because "Russia currently has a GDP similar to Florida".
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remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.

The Taliban won. Other Mujahadeen groups got no US support from them. South Vietnam was conquered by the North.
The Us guaranteed the intrity of the Ukraine
The US is a faithless ally.

The US wasn't fighting the Taliban, it was supporting an insurgency against the Soviets -- who lost, and left. So the Afghans got rid of the Russians. What came afterwards was up to them, wasn't it? Or are they still just children, needing the firm hand and guidance of the British Empire? The Afghanis were just silly to kick the Brits out.

Yes, South Vietnam was conquered by the North. As I said, the South Vietnamese would have loved to have been abandoned in the same manner as the Afghanis, but it didn't work out. America's not like the Brits -- we've lost a war or two along the way. Can't be perfect like the Anglish.

The US and NATO guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine -- most of it is still, uhm, integral. You want to start World War III over Ukraine, be my guest.

If you haven't noticed there hasn't been any British Empire for all my lifetime. (Well therewas a bit of decolonising remaining when I was a child.)Going on about the British Empire is whataboutism on a grand scale.
The US formed alliances locally in Afghanistan to fight the Russians and then left the people concerned in the lurch. You are doing the same thing in Syria now. You have pretty well shafted us in Afghanistan as you demanded help from us via NATO which we could not refuse and then had zero political will to actually acheive anything. Lots of British soldiers died there for nothing. If you wanted to invade the country you needed a plan.
Sadly Brexit is obscuring the main point which is that we Europeans would do better in a strong alliance where we are not dependent on US help, as basically I don't think the US can be trusted when push comes to shove.
As for Crimea, the US is rolling back its sanctions and if they are retained it will be due to domestic issues around vote fixing and all mention of Crimea will be dropped.
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Thanks, Christina. I’d missed that tidbit. How does anyone in D.C. (e.g. the Senate, the House) NOT think this Administration is defaulting on its obligations to US values?

While Trump breaks more of America let’s play tour guide for corrupt Russians.
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J.D. Hall
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DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.

The Taliban won. Other Mujahadeen groups got no US support from them. South Vietnam was conquered by the North.
The Us guaranteed the intrity of the Ukraine
The US is a faithless ally.

The US wasn't fighting the Taliban, it was supporting an insurgency against the Soviets -- who lost, and left. So the Afghans got rid of the Russians. What came afterwards was up to them, wasn't it? Or are they still just children, needing the firm hand and guidance of the British Empire? The Afghanis were just silly to kick the Brits out.

Yes, South Vietnam was conquered by the North. As I said, the South Vietnamese would have loved to have been abandoned in the same manner as the Afghanis, but it didn't work out. America's not like the Brits -- we've lost a war or two along the way. Can't be perfect like the Anglish.

The US and NATO guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine -- most of it is still, uhm, integral. You want to start World War III over Ukraine, be my guest.

If you haven't noticed there hasn't been any British Empire for all my lifetime. (Well therewas a bit of decolonising remaining when I was a child.)Going on about the British Empire is whataboutism on a grand scale.
The US formed alliances locally in Afghanistan to fight the Russians and then left the people concerned in the lurch. You are doing the same thing in Syria now. You have pretty well shafted us in Afghanistan as you demanded help from us via NATO which we could not refuse and then had zero political will to actually acheive anything. Lots of British soldiers died there for nothing. If you wanted to invade the country you needed a plan.
Sadly Brexit is obscuring the main point which is that we Europeans would do better in a strong alliance where we are not dependent on US help, as basically I don't think the US can be trusted when push comes to shove.
As for Crimea, the US is rolling back its sanctions and if they are retained it will be due to domestic issues around vote fixing and all mention of Crimea will be dropped.

Actually, I was pointing out, indirectly, how America has followed England's example as a world power. The Arabs in World War I have lovely views of the English, don't they? Not to mention the Indians. Or Indonesia. Or Rhodesia.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
growlley wrote:

then Abandoned like all Americas allies since Vietnam.

Uhm, the Mujahadeen won. The Soviets lost and exited the country. South Vietnam would have been lucky to be so "abandoned" by the US.

The Taliban won. Other Mujahadeen groups got no US support from them. South Vietnam was conquered by the North.
The Us guaranteed the intrity of the Ukraine
The US is a faithless ally.

The US wasn't fighting the Taliban, it was supporting an insurgency against the Soviets -- who lost, and left. So the Afghans got rid of the Russians. What came afterwards was up to them, wasn't it? Or are they still just children, needing the firm hand and guidance of the British Empire? The Afghanis were just silly to kick the Brits out.

Yes, South Vietnam was conquered by the North. As I said, the South Vietnamese would have loved to have been abandoned in the same manner as the Afghanis, but it didn't work out. America's not like the Brits -- we've lost a war or two along the way. Can't be perfect like the Anglish.

The US and NATO guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine -- most of it is still, uhm, integral. You want to start World War III over Ukraine, be my guest.

If you haven't noticed there hasn't been any British Empire for all my lifetime. (Well therewas a bit of decolonising remaining when I was a child.)Going on about the British Empire is whataboutism on a grand scale.
The US formed alliances locally in Afghanistan to fight the Russians and then left the people concerned in the lurch. You are doing the same thing in Syria now. You have pretty well shafted us in Afghanistan as you demanded help from us via NATO which we could not refuse and then had zero political will to actually acheive anything. Lots of British soldiers died there for nothing. If you wanted to invade the country you needed a plan.
Sadly Brexit is obscuring the main point which is that we Europeans would do better in a strong alliance where we are not dependent on US help, as basically I don't think the US can be trusted when push comes to shove.
As for Crimea, the US is rolling back its sanctions and if they are retained it will be due to domestic issues around vote fixing and all mention of Crimea will be dropped.

Actually, I was pointing out, indirectly, how America has followed England's example as a world power. The Arabs in World War I have lovely views of the English, don't they? Not to mention the Indians. Or Indonesia. Or Rhodesia.


And I'll be sure to hold any English people who were of voting age in the 1910s I happen to come across accountable.

Still completely immaterial to the fact that the US has (also? I guess? have your cookie if you need it) been a thoroughly untrustworthy ally for the last several decades. If your best comeback is "Yeah, but so are you!" maybe take a step back and have a long hard think about what exactly you're hoping to accomplish.
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DiamondSylph wrote:
And of course, yesterday we were also treated to Mr. Trump's bizarre version of history, where he not only justified Russia's invasion of Afghanistan as a defense against terrorism, he blamed it for the collapse of the Soviet Union

I wonder if he got that crap from his one-on-ones with Putin?
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jmilum wrote:
DiamondSylph wrote:
And of course, yesterday we were also treated to Mr. Trump's bizarre version of history, where he not only justified Russia's invasion of Afghanistan as a defense against terrorism, he blamed it for the collapse of the Soviet Union

I wonder if he got that crap from his one-on-ones with Putin?


When the words "Belarus" and "Montenegro" come out of Trump's mouth (two countries I'm pretty sure he can't find on a map) you've got to assume SOMEBODY put it there.

I mean, there's no Trump Tower Minsk or Podgorica, so how else would Trump know anything about them?
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UPDATE: After a suitably embarrassed Mr. Bridenstine first said that Mr. Rogozin's visit to the US had been postponed, NASA has formally revoked its invitation to the former Russian vice premier. As of yesterday, Russia has demanded an official explanation. And they're not the only ones -- why did the Trump administration try this end-around to permit a sanctioned political figure into the country?
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I think it's interesting that Trump chose the "stop the terrorists" narrative to justify the Afghanistan war. Of course, the actual reasons by the Soviet Union to intervene in Afghanistan, and the link between the Afghanistan war and terrorism are themselves a bit of a taboo in open American political discourse, which is what creates the space for Trump to project US justifications of post-Cold War foreign policies onto Cold War Soviet Union. But I think the interesting aspect is not related to what is actually true, but to the ideological narratives at play.

It's interesting to see Trump, as so often, channelling US ideology in an obscene, symptomatic way. The claim that the Soviet Union was motivated to stop terrorists is ridiculous, but no less ridiculous than when the US uses it to justify interventions everywhere. And, conversely, the same circles that will condemn this as pro-Russian shenanigans will feel the strong need to separate Soviet actions in Afghanistan from mirroring actions by the US in Vietnam, Cambodia, Central Africa or Latin America, as they are too invested in the moral narrative of the Cold War except for a bunch of cynical foreign policy realists that lost all their autoritas in Washington to neocons many decades ago and as a result come across as equally obscene today. It is these self-conflicted taboos of the American psyche that Trumpian idiocy arises from - and it seems the collective reaction is mostly to close ranks and vocally reject there's any conflict at all.
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viclineal wrote:
I think it's interesting that Trump chose the "stop the terrorists" narrative to justify the Afghanistan war. Of course, the actual reasons by the Soviet Union to intervene in Afghanistan, and the link between the Afghanistan war and terrorism are themselves a bit of a taboo in open American political discourse, which is what creates the space for Trump to project US justifications of post-Cold War foreign policies onto Cold War Soviet Union. But I think the interesting aspect is not related to what is actually true, but to the ideological narratives at play.

It's interesting to see Trump, as so often, channelling US ideology in an obscene, symptomatic way. The claim that the Soviet Union was motivated to stop terrorists is ridiculous, but no less ridiculous than when the US uses it to justify interventions everywhere. And, conversely, the same circles that will condemn this as pro-Russian shenanigans will feel the strong need to separate Soviet actions in Afghanistan from mirroring actions by the US in Vietnam, Cambodia, Central Africa or Latin America, as they are too invested in the moral narrative of the Cold War except for a bunch of cynical foreign policy realists that lost all their autoritas in Washington to neocons many decades ago and as a result come across as equally obscene today. It is these self-conflicted taboos of the American psyche that Trumpian idiocy arises from - and it seems the collective reaction is mostly to close ranks and vocally reject there's any conflict at all.
It's like Trump has never seen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambo_III

That pretty much tells the whole story of the war verbatim. It's a veritable documentary when the metaphors and allegory are broken down.

Of course, not really, but it does illustrate just how bizarre Trump's base is. They come from a background of eating this kind of propaganda up and incorporating it into their nationalism, but then can turn on a dime and believe the complete opposite when Trump tells them to. They are puppets to the puppet. How do Putin's string fingers not get tired?
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