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Subject: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other Aspects of the Game rss

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Jack Liu
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Stemmed from various strategy and race strength threads, this thread can be used to discuss changes and possibly apply them to PBF/Home games. The changes should not be large as we don't want to fundamentally change the way a race plays, just some slight tweaks to tone up/down certain races

Also there has been some tweaks used in a few pbf games that adjust the 8vp 2pt fed to be 3pt. (updated 7vp 3pt)

FYI: PBF games are played with rotations (starting PBF4). Also we tend to veto tile 7F from being in the center atm (since PBF8)
But it's possible that nerfs to ambas and ivit would remove this restriction

Observed top races:
Ambas
Itar
Ivit
Nevlas

Observed weaker races:
Xenos
Gleen (at least in 3-4p)
Lantid

Proposals OPTIONS

Poll
Ambas Options
remove starting nav
-1pt income from PI and -1qic start
-1o income
remove starting nav, add starting ai track
-1pt from PI
-1qic start
no change
      24 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Ivit changes (pick any option you are ok with)
-1power from SS
Cost 1pt to place SS
-1qic +1o start
No change
      22 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Itar changes (pick any you would be ok with)
-1 starting Ore
-1pt income
-1pt from PI
No change
      22 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Nevlas changes (pick any option you are ok with)
-2pw income from PI
-1pt income from PI
No Change
      20 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Gleen changes (pick any you would be ok with)
+1qic start (1o)
+1pt income
Other (please post in thread with suggestion)
No change
      21 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Lantid changes (pick any you would be ok with)
+2c start
+2pt in Bowl1 start
+1pt income from PI
+2pt in Bowl 2 start and +1pt from PI
Other (post with suggestion)
No Change
      20 answers
Poll created by frotes


Poll
Xenos changes (pick any you would be ok with)
+2pt in bowl I Start
+1pt income on PI
+1o start
+2c start
Other (post with suggestion)
No change
      20 answers
Poll created by frotes


Previously threads with discussion:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29802730#29802730 (race observations/faction tier)
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2116828/der-schwarmivits-ho...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2034265/tile-7-front-side-v...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2084842/ideas-buffing-xenos...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29650142#29650142 (lantid)
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2126130/8vp-2pt-federation-...
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Jack Liu
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
My current possible changes are:

Ambas
#1: -nav
#2: -1pt from PI, -1qic start
#3: -1o income (probably too boring)

Ivit
#1: SS do not provide 1p

Itar
#1: remove extra starting ore

Nevlas - not sure on this one. They are pretty ok but just so dam flexible and they basically double their power gains. Maybe tweak PI to give less +pw or remove the 1pt base from it. PT removal would force them to take more 3pw>2pt actions which aren't the best for them

Gleen
#1: +1 starting qic

Lantrid
#1: +2c start
#2: +2pt in Bowl1 start
 
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Bokken B
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
frotes wrote:
My current thoughts are:

Ambas
#1: -nav
#2: -1pt from PI, -1qic start
#3: -1o income (probably too boring)

Ivit
#1: SS do not provide 1p

Itar
#1: remove extra starting ore

Nevlas - not sure on this one. They are pretty ok but just so dam flexible and they basically double their power gains. Maybe tweak PI to give less +pw or remove the 1pt base from it. PT removal would force them to take more 3pw>2pt actions which aren't the best for them

Gleen
#1: +1 starting qic

Lantrid
#1: +2c start
#2: +2pt in Bowl1 start


Ambas:
I think any one of those nerfs would be enough. Especially the less 1 nav to start. All three would be too much of a nerf.

Ivits:
I disagree that this race is too strong, and I feel many players are just not great at playing against them. I think the Space stations not being worth 1 pt is far too big of a nerf for them. As for a more suitable nerf, I think power tokens should have to be managed for something other than just gaia projects, it makes power too flexible for them. Perhaps each space station requires a discarded power, maybe even 2 discarded power, I think that would make them much more difficult to manage properly without tanking the strength of the race.

Itars:
I dont see this race as being especially strong, especially since you need to build your PI to have very much of an effect on the game, making you a bit less flexible in the first 3 turns. I also dont see a need for them to start with 1 extra ore, so I'm ok with this idea for a change, but I dont think they need to be brought in line much. If I were to hit something on them, It'd probably just be the extra power token income. either base or when building the PI.

Nevlas:
I've seen Nevlas beaten alot due to too much power charge taken. But I can also see people finding them oppressive to play against as they seem to have great economic starts and can take many of contested objectives. I think this is actually a good balance to have, and people will need to properly play against them knowing some competitions will be lost but it can cost nevals more victory points than the objectives are worth. I'm not sure they need a nerf, but if they do, I'd say the best place to hit for balance would simply be have the PI give 2 power charge instead of 4.

Gleens:
They defiantly need at least 1 ore extra to start. Almost every other race starts with 7 ore + 1 QIC. They start with 8 ore, but only because they're one up on the Nav tree, Other races (such as ambas) dont have this issue.

Maybe starting with 1 qic that was actually a QIC (the only one they can use before building the AI2) would be a really nice change and make it more difficult for them to be boxed in. But the main issue with this race is that they must and i mean MUST get to nav 2 before the end of turn 2. If they dont they pretty much tank their entire game. Since it takes an action to get to nav 2 (which might not even be the ideal move to get to nav 2..) Other races can take a key gaia planet or yellow planet before they have a chance to expand. This can completely ruin any chance they have early.

To me, the best thing to do with Gleens would be to have them start with 7 ore, NO tech advancement, but they start with 1 extra Nav. I think this solves alot of their problems while still making them a unique and fun race. (personally i'm not a fan of the 2vp per gaia mine either, i'd rather see something different from this, but it's fine as it is)

Lantid:
I really feel that Lantid are so far behind, that none of these changes are enough to make them good. I'm still where I was at when I wrote this. Mostly, I think the PI bonus needs a rehaul to make it a lategame power so that it doesn't force them to cripple themselves early to get a benefit, and they need a standard power start (2/4/0). I Still like the idea of making the PI to Make it so that when you form feds, Each shared mine in that fed will give you a free (do not have to discard a power) satellite toward that fed.) This would also balance out the PI not having a power token income.

Firaks:
While we're on races I think are a bit under tuned. I think Firaks could use some love. They start with no tech advancement, No base power, and one less ore. They have to get their PI AND a research lab out even to start making use of their special ability. The only benefit they get before getting their PI and RL out, is an extra K income, which they dont even really get on the first turn. I think they could be ok, and I will admit I have played them less than ALL of the other races, but I think maybe they would be more balanced if they started with the standard ore start? 7 instead of 6? Just my thoughts.
 
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Jack Liu
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Sorry I didn't mean to imply we should do all the buffs or nerfs. I was putting the numbers there as groupings and people could come in and comment/vote on what they prefer
 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Bokken wrote:
Ivits:
I disagree that this race is too strong, and I feel many players are just not great at playing against them. I think the Space stations not being worth 1 pt is far too big of a nerf for them. As for a more suitable nerf, I think power tokens should have to be managed for something other than just gaia projects, it makes power too flexible for them. Perhaps each space station requires a discarded power, maybe even 2 discarded power, I think that would make them much more difficult to manage properly without tanking the strength of the race.


I think discarding power for SS would hurt them more than a +1fed over the course of a game. They actually need some extra early PT to manage having +4 from PI and going GF1. Sure after GF2 and some turns, they can afford to burn the rest. No nerf is fine too

Bokken wrote:

Itars:
I dont see this race as being especially strong, especially since you need to build your PI to have very much of an effect on the game, making you a bit less flexible in the first 3 turns. I also dont see a need for them to start with 1 extra ore, so I'm ok with this idea for a change, but I dont think they need to be brought in line much. If I were to hit something on them, It'd probably just be the extra power token income. either base or when building the PI.


They already get 3k AC and extra PT and a nice power. -1pt income could work too but personally I think +1o start just so they can get AC start easier is a bit odd. I'm not a big fan of races starting with more or less resources as the snowball can be big. PT at least requires additional things to utilize it

Bokken wrote:

Gleens:
They defiantly need at least 1 ore extra to start. Almost every other race starts with 7 ore + 1 QIC. They start with 8 ore, but only because they're one up on the Nav tree, Other races (such as ambas) dont have this issue.

Maybe starting with 1 qic that was actually a QIC (the only one they can use before building the AI2) would be a really nice change and make it more difficult for them to be boxed in. But the main issue with this race is that they must and i mean MUST get to nav 2 before the end of turn 2. If they dont they pretty much tank their entire game. Since it takes an action to get to nav 2 (which might not even be the ideal move to get to nav 2..) Other races can take a key gaia planet or yellow planet before they have a chance to expand. This can completely ruin any chance they have early.

To me, the best thing to do with Gleens would be to have them start with 7 ore, NO tech advancement, but they start with 1 extra Nav. I think this solves alot of their problems while still making them a unique and fun race. (personally i'm not a fan of the 2vp per gaia mine either, i'd rather see something different from this, but it's fine as it is)


I agree with you but that's a bit more of a change, especially with ambas nerf. I heard originally gleen and ambas were kind of swapped in power level during testing and so ambas was buffed and gleen nerfed

Bokken wrote:

Landid:
I really feel that Lantid are so far behind, that none of these changes are enough to make them good. I'm still where I was at when I wrote this Mostly, I think the PI bonus needs a rehaul to make it a lategame power so that it doesn't force them to cripple themselves early to get a benefit, and they need a standard power start (2/4/0). I Still like the idea of making the PI to Make it so that when you form feds, Each shared mine in that fed will give you a free (do not have to discard a power) satellite toward that fed.) This would also balance out the PI not having a power token income.


Yea they are behind the curve still. Forgot about no PT on PI so could give them that. I hesitate to adjust any powers as that can change the races identity

Bokken wrote:

Firaks:
While we're on races I think are a bit under tuned. I think Firaks could use some love. They start with no tech advancement, No base power, and one less ore. They have to get their PI AND a research lab out even to start making use of their special ability. The only benefit they get before getting their PI and RL out, is an extra K income, which they dont even really get on the first turn. I think they could be ok, and I will admit I have played them less than ALL of the other races, but I think maybe they would be more balanced if they started with the standard ore start? 7 instead of 6? Just my thoughts.


I've had really good success with Firak when I play them. 6o is not a big nerf but does limit their early game. I wouldn't mind restoring them to 7 but I believe there was some concern with them opening PI+RL which is why it is 6o.

Firak have a strong endgame, their only weakness is a slow early/mid game. The more that brown and ice are out of the picture, the better they will be
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
I have come to think that the bigger issue is actually using the map balancing software. Making the factions have closely balanced maps without rotation actually makes some factions stronger and others weaker because people can't do the map balancing as well as the software.

Yellow generally has better positions on the sectors (5/6 on edge) and Brown generally has worse positions on the sectors (2/6 on edge), but because the map balancing software fixes this issue the balance between the factions at a human level is upset.

All planet types on edges...

Blue 4/6
Red 4/6
Orange 4/6
Yellow 5/6
Brown 2/6
Grey 4/6
White 3/6
Green 0/7
Purple 12/12
 
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Jack Liu
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
I have come to think that the bigger issue is actually using the map balancing software. Making the factions have closely balanced maps without rotation actually makes some factions stronger and others weaker because people can't do the map balancing as well as the software.


I don't understand this comment because on PBF we play with rotations since like game3+

I've even played games with 100% player 4 control on setup
 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
frotes wrote:

Ivits
I think discarding power for SS would hurt them more than a +1fed over the course of a game. They actually need some extra early PT to manage having +4 from PI and going GF1. Sure after GF2 and some turns, they can afford to burn the rest. No nerf is fine too


I would disagree with requiring 6 PT discard over the game being more than 1 fed over the course of the game. Especially considering that one of their best strengths is WHEN you can get your first fed. I think 1 power token is a small price to pay, and if you want to start with Gaia forming, you need to take a the round booster, a first turn fed 2 tile or power action 7 to give you more tokens. Personally I think that's a fantastic way to balance them.

Quote:

Itars:

They already get 3k AC and extra PT and a nice power. -1pt income could work too but personally I think +1o start just so they can get AC start easier is a bit odd. I'm not a big fan of races starting with more or less resources as the snowball can be big. PT at least requires additional things to utilize it


I'm curious, how often do you actually see a AC rush with them? This means you wont get your PI power online until round 3 at best. Personally I'm not sure this is a good strategy for them anyway, but I could be wrong. Still, I can see the extra ore being supurfulous, But i also see the possibility of a small initial term income having a HUGE effect, I don't want to see any race over nerfed. This happened to Shapeshifters in TM and I still think the nerf bats came down way too hard, so I prefer to be very cautious. Like I said, the 1 ore nerf could be a good nerf, but It's also neat to see a race with a slightly different income to others. I'd still hit the power token income personally, but I'd be ok with the ore nerf, at least to test it out.

Quote:

Gleens:

I agree with you but that's a bit more of a change, especially with ambas nerf. I heard originally gleen and ambas were kind of swapped in power level during testing and so ambas was buffed and gleen nerfed


Ya, I dont want to over buff anything, I think a QIC that could be used as one would be a bandaid fix, and would make their "not smart enough to understand QIC" a bit of a misnomer. I'm not worried about big changes if they retain the feel of the race and help to balance. I'd be fine with a QIC, but I still really like the idea of just starting with an extra nav and no tech advancement the best. This would make their start similar to ambas now, but they would not have the ability to make super efficient Feds like Ambas, and will always struggle with power tokens.

Quote:

Landid:

Yea they are behind the curve still. Forgot about no PT on PI so could give them that. I hesitate to adjust any powers as that can change the races identity

I think the identity is being able to build shared mines, the 2k is simply a bonus, and causes far more problems than it's worth. It's not just that Lantids struggle to be able to win games, it's that playing them is unreasonably difficult because of the interactions with shared mines and the ability to upgrade, as I wrote about in that other thread. Any small change to them is simply going to preserve this gameplay, which I think is the main problem. And lets be honest, the amount of income changes alone they would need to be balanced would be massive in themselves.

Quote:

Firaks:

I've had really good success with Firak when I play them. 6o is not a big nerf but does limit their early game. I wouldn't mind restoring them to 7 but I believe there was some concern with them opening PI+RL which is why it is 6o.

Firak have a strong endgame, their only weakness is a slow early/mid game. The more that brown and ice are out of the picture, the better they will be


Perhaps you're right here, I can't really say. But I've found them to be very weak. less income than others, no tech advancement. No on board power until you get your PI and RL out (other than 2k income which is not received in turn 1). All in all, they're not a very flexible race, and that often leads to being under-tuned.

Perhaps I just need more experience playing them.
 
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Jon Kern
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
I think if we want to "balance" factions we need to keep their identity the same. Here are my proposals for fixes.

Ambas:

Problem: The combination of the following factors makes Ambas always good.

1. Sector 7 is too strong for the Ambas and gives them a very strong turn 1.

2. Navigation is always useful and the "bad" brown positioning is virtually negated by Sector 7 and early Nav:2.

3. Federation ability provides 2 additional federation tokens on average. This equates to 24ish points. This is much stronger than the HH federation for example that can generate a few extra QIC, but nothing near as swingy as 24 points.

Identity:
1. The Ore Income Faction.
2. Forms Extra Feds.

Proposed Change: Remove level 1 Nav and add level 1 AI. This change forces the Ambas to use both initial tech steps for Navigation to gain an advantage with Sector 7.

Ivits:

Problems:

1. Sector 7 is too strong for the Ivits and gives them a very strong turn 1.

2. They have a lot of starting power charge and can more easily manage not receiving power charge from opponents.

3. They don't need pt for federations and they have passive pt income. This means that they can cheaply do Gaia Projects.

Identity:

1. Large Fed
2. Spread like an infestation or plague

Proposed Change: -1 Starting QIC + 1 Starting Ore. This forces the Ivits to use an action to gain the QIC necessary to settle both Gaia Planets in sector 7. This opens up more counter play.

I will add more recommended changes later as I have time. Let me know if this is what the player base is looking for. I think most of the proposed changes suggested initially are too large.
 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Bokken wrote:
frotes wrote:

Ivits
I think discarding power for SS would hurt them more than a +1fed over the course of a game. They actually need some extra early PT to manage having +4 from PI and going GF1. Sure after GF2 and some turns, they can afford to burn the rest. No nerf is fine too


I would disagree with requiring 6 PT discard over the game being more than 1 fed over the course of the game. Especially considering that one of their best strengths is WHEN you can get your first fed. I think 1 power token is a small price to pay, and if you want to start with Gaia forming, you need to take a the round booster, a first turn fed 2 tile or power action 7 to give you more tokens. Personally I think that's a fantastic way to balance them.


I could see 1pt for SS, I thought you were suggesting 2pt > 1ss

Bokken wrote:

I'm curious, how often do you actually see a AC rush with them? This means you wont get your PI power online until round 3 at best. Personally I'm not sure this is a good strategy for them anyway, but I could be wrong. Still, I can see the extra ore being supurfulous, But i also see the possibility of a small initial term income having a HUGE effect, I don't want to see any race over nerfed. This happened to Shapeshifters in TM and I still think the nerf bats came down way too hard, so I prefer to be very cautious. Like I said, the 1 ore nerf could be a good nerf, but It's also neat to see a race with a slightly different income to others. I'd still hit the power token income personally, but I'd be ok with the ore nerf, at least to test it out.


Most games on PBF start with AC. PI or RL+TS+2M>PI is also possible but I think AC start is the best since it's an auto 4k without investing into 1c+1k tile.

Bokken wrote:

Firaks:
Perhaps you're right here, I can't really say. But I've found them to be very weak. less income than others, no tech advancement. No on board power until you get your PI and RL out (other than 2k income which is not received in turn 1). All in all, they're not a very flexible race, and that often leads to being under-tuned.

Perhaps I just need more experience playing them.


They are not very flexible due to 6o and being so heavily indexed on PI&RL. But they are extremely powerful endgame due to all that extra tech and sci from extra bump from R2-6 and +5k in game and being able to rebuy RL so many times. I find they do better in 3p

in my 3p game with them on PBF, i ended up with lvl4-5 in all tracks and every tech. I often end with 4-5 on at least 4/5 tech tracks with them

Anyways, 7o start is fine by me for them
 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Limitless333 wrote:

I will add more recommended changes later as I have time. Let me know if this is what the player base is looking for. I think most of the proposed changes suggested initially are too large.


I think there is a misunderstanding in what i'm proposing. I'm ASKING people to vote on #s

I will add your suggestions as options, please continue to propose them
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
For Lantids, would keeping the resource nerfs but allowing them to count parasite colonies for planet type and gaia scoring be too strong? I always hated the arbitrary nature of that rule...

Ambas should definitely get a slight nerf, maybe to the extra power income from the PI. Moving their track to AI would make them too much like Xenos.

The Greens definitely need one starting qic. Or instead, would giving them a +1 ore round income like Ambas be too strong?

I'm on the fence about Ivits, and the other races seem fine.

 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Bokken wrote:

I think the identity is being able to build shared mines, the 2k is simply a bonus, and causes far more problems than it's worth. It's not just that Lantids struggle to be able to win games, it's that playing them is unreasonably difficult because of the interactions with shared mines and the ability to upgrade, as I wrote about in that other thread. Any small change to them is simply going to preserve this gameplay, which I think is the main problem. And lets be honest, the amount of income changes alone they would need to be balanced would be massive in themselves.



Imo we should just preserve their gameplay and tweak numbers to allow for "better" setup. Fundamental changes to races are too hard to reach consensus and can go far out of scope
 
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
Dindraug wrote:

The Greens definitely need one starting qic. Or instead, would giving them a +1 ore round income like Ambas be too strong?


There is an inherent issue with both Nav races being next to each other on the color wheel. If one is better than the other, they start to overshadow the other and encroach on them realm

It is better to be on the conservative side and see how a nerf to ambas start and a small bump to gleen start will sway the balance
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Jack Liu
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Re: Possible Adjustments to Existing Races and other aspects of the game
A goal of mine is to have us move away from straight banning 7F tile from being in the center by tweaking the races that become too good from it. The tile itself is interesting and also helps yellow/gray and possibly other interesting openers, it's just that ambas and ivit can capitalize on it too much atm
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Bokken B
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frotes wrote:
A goal of mine is to have us move away from straight banning 7F tile from being in the center by tweaking the races that become too good from it. The tile itself is interesting and also helps yellow/gray and possibly other interesting openers, it's just that ambas and ivit can capitalize on it too much atm


I like this mindset too.

I would really like to see an option for gleens of -nav +1 inherent navigation. Just to see if it's a popular idea.

As for lantid, can we add an option to +2pt in bowl 2 and +1pt PI income?


Otherwise. Did you want to take the poll here? or wait until the options are finalized?
 
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Jon Kern
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I now agree with Kester's list from A Few Faction Specific Observations/Questions and think we should be adjusting the top four and the bottom two. I will also propose changes to the Gleens as I think they are fairly equal to Xenos in terms of weakness.

Quote:
Consistent, high ceiling
Ambas
Itar
Nevlas
Ivits

Inconsistent, high ceiling
Taklons
Terran
Geodens
Bal'tak
Bescods

Consistent, low ceiling
Gleens
Firaks
Hadsch Hallas

Inconsistent, low ceiling
Xenos
Lantids


Now on to a few more suggestions.

Nevlas:

Problems:

1. Economy is exceptionally flexible and powerful due to PI ability of doubling power while providing the same charge as everyone else's PI.

Identity:

1. Use power more efficiently than other races.
2. Use power to generate knowledge.

Proposed Change:

From Bokken

Quote:
I'd say the best place to hit for balance would simply be have the PI give 2 power charge instead of 4.


Itars:

Problem: A+2M Opener is very strong for most factions. The Itars can more easily open A+2M due to extra starting ore and benefit more than other factions due to the A providing 3k.

Identity:

1. Use power tokens and PI to take a lot of tech tiles.
2. Encouraged to build up instead of out.

Proposed Change: -1 Ore +1pt in bowl II at the start making them basically a 5/5 starting power faction. I think that this change would both nerf the A+2M opener and encourage more interesting PI opening with the Itars.

Will post on the bottom tier factions as I have time.
 
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Jon Kern
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Quote:
Otherwise. Did you want to take the poll here? or wait until the options are finalized?


I would vote for waiting to have a poll until we have more agreement from those that wish to weigh in on the options for balance that would go on a poll.
 
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Bobrov Alexander
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I agree with most of the suggestions.

Ambas
OPTION #1: -nav
THIS OPTION #2: -1pt from PI AND/OR -1qic start
OPTION #3: -1o income (probably too boring)
OPTION #4: -nav +ai

Ivit
THIS OPTION #1: -1power from SS or other cost
OPTION #2: Cost 1pt to place SS maybe a good idea too, but it can shift the balance from gaiaforming to terraforming. need to think
OPTION #3: -1qic +1o start weaken early spread, which is already difficult, it can break their game

Itar
THIS OPTION #1: -1 starting Ore
OPTION #2: -1pt income
OPTION #3: -1pt from PI too painful and will make the PI even more useless


Gleen
THIS OPTION #1: +1 starting qic = 1ore


Lantrid
THIS OPTION #1: +2c start
THIS OPTION #2: +2pt in Bowl1 start
THIS OPTION #3: +1pt income from PI
All three. Let the lantids play

Also,
Firaks +1ore.
Nevlas -pt in PI
Taklons start with -1/2 pt
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Bobrov Alexander
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Bokken wrote:


Itars:

I'm curious, how often do you actually see a AC rush with them? This means you wont get your PI power online until round 3 at best. Personally I'm not sure this is a good strategy for them anyway, but I could be wrong.


You're wrong
Seriously, they play well without a Pi at all. +1ore, +1pt +3k in Ac and good ability make the Pi optional. Itars can build Pi in 4-5 round to take 1-3 additional Tech. Or don't build at all and win FS Sats
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Jon Kern
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bobral wrote:
I agree with most of the suggestions.

Ambas
OPTION #1: -nav
THIS OPTION #2: -1pt from PI AND/OR -1qic start
OPTION #3: -1o income (probably too boring)
OPTION #4: -nav +ai

Ivit
THIS OPTION #1: -1power from SS or other cost
OPTION #2: Cost 1pt to place SS maybe a good idea too, but it can shift the balance from gaiaforming to terraforming. need to think
OPTION #3: -1qic +1o start weaken early spread, which is already difficult, it can break their game

Itar
THIS OPTION #1: -1 starting Ore
OPTION #2: -1pt income
OPTION #3: -1pt from PI too painful and will make the PI even more useless


Gleen
THIS OPTION #1: +1 starting qic = 1ore


Lantrid
THIS OPTION #1: +2c start
THIS OPTION #2: +2pt in Bowl1 start
THIS OPTION #3: +1pt income from PI
All three. Let the lantids play

Also,
Firaks +1ore.
Nevlas -pt in PI
Taklons start with -1/2 pt


I would be okay with any of the following changes.

Ambas
Okay changes
-Nav +AI AND/OR
-1pt from PI

Not Okay
-1 QIC Start

Why should we take sector 7 away from the Ambas and let grey and red take it? Also Ambas are meant to be expansionary and you are taking away one of their expansion tools.

Ivit
Okay changes
-1 QIC + 1 Ore OR
SS either cost power like satellites or force you to move some number of power to to the Gaia area probably 2.

Not okay
Removing federation power from SS. Might as well remove the faction imo.

Itar
Okay changes
-1 Starting Ore, (I would like to see +1pt in bowl II to compensate, but I think the Itars would see some although a lot less play with this nerf and no buff anywhere.)

Nevlas
Okay changes
-2 Power Charge from PI OR
-1 PT from PI

Gleen
+1 starting qic = 1ore

Lantid
Okay changes
+2c start AND
+2pt in Bowl1 start AND
+1pt income from PI

I think Lantids will be slightly OP, but think they way suck atm. So it is worth testing them at regular stats.

Additionally instead of giving the Gleens +ore, I have in the past suggested the following change to both yellow factions and still think that it would be a good conservative change for both the Gleens and Xenos.

Quote:
Yellow is positioned well for Gaia Forming. Xenos struggle to Gaia Form due to limited power. I suggest the following change. This could be applied to Gleens if people feel they are weak also. I don't have enough experience.

Starting Resources: +2pt in bowl I
PI: Income: +1pt


I would not be okay with any changes to the Firaks and Taklos. I still feel that these factions are balanced.
 
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Jack Liu
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I'm gathering the proposed options and will create polls with each. You can vote on multiple options if you are ok with more than 1, that will give the general public a count of what is viewed as the more popular variant choices. Also more can be added later
 
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Jack Liu
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Ambas poll is up. It seems you can't edit poll with more options once it is set so I'd like give more time to collect more options for the other races before creating them

Anyways, this is not the end all be all so we can always revisit things in the future. But I think we can all agree that some tweaks could help the current balance of things
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Bokken B
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I agree that Taklons are balanced and do not need adjustment.

I also think Itars are in a fairly good spot and probably dont need adjustment, but are a bit stronger than taklons.

I think giving Gleens one more ore to start will not fix their main problem. Their issue is really not starting income so much as it is being able to be blocked early and completely ruining any chance they have.

Maybe 1 more ore will be enough, but i'm doubtful, if anything I'd say they need 2. But I think we should at least playtest 1 for a while, and see where they stand.

 
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Jack Liu
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Limitless333 wrote:

Proposed Change:

From Bokken

Quote:
I'd say the best place to hit for balance would simply be have the PI give 2 power charge instead of 4.



I had originally thought about -2pw but felt that it would limit their ability to utilize PI starts

I'm currently on the -1pt train because it makes them take the less efficient (for them) 3pw>2pt action.

bobral wrote:
Bokken wrote:


Itars:

I'm curious, how often do you actually see a AC rush with them? This means you wont get your PI power online until round 3 at best. Personally I'm not sure this is a good strategy for them anyway, but I could be wrong.


You're wrong
Seriously, they play well without a Pi at all. +1ore, +1pt +3k in Ac and good ability make the Pi optional. Itars can build Pi in 4-5 round to take 1-3 additional Tech. Or don't build at all and win FS Sats


Yea I think their 3k AC is their main strength. The PI is just an icing on the cake to allow them some free tiles mid/late game or get a jump on adv tech

PI starts can also be pretty good, I've done it a few times. But I think AC is overall more stable
 
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