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KeyForge: Call of the Archons» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playing Take Hostages twice rss

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Fabrizio Federiconi
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If I play Take Hostages twice in a turn, do fighting creatures capture one Amber or two Ambers?


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Michael Nerman
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Two.
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Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
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nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.
 
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bbblasterfire wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.


Library Access is worded the same way and stacks.
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Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
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waxbottle wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.


Library Access is worded the same way and stacks.






They need to do a better job of making things clear. I would think then that The Sting should produce double the amount of Aember if you have 2 copies of the card in play.

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J Kaemmer
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waxbottle wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.


Library Access is worded the same way and stacks.


Phase shift was ruled as being able to be played multiple times and stack. That one is even worded more strictly in favor of a once per turn.

If Phase shift stcks. This stacks.
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giovanni ciampi
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bbblasterfire wrote:


They need to do a better job of making things clear. I would think then that The Sting should produce double the amount of Aember if you have 2 copies of the card in play.



Except that it does not say "you gain X aember where X is the amount spend ect." or something like that. It does say that you precisely get the aember used to forge. So the second one that would trigger (assuming it's even a trigger we are talking about here) would get effectively nothing because there would be nothing else to take.
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Bob Rademaker
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Take Hostages and Library Access both refer to a specific number (Aember or Card) that is gained when the effect triggers. The Sting has a constant ability, but once the Aember spent forging a key is spent and given to the owner of The Sting, there is nothing left to give.
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Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
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Yes, but they should trigger simultaneously as they are both on the board.

The wording on all the cards are equally precise. I don't see a case where one is worded more precise than another.
 
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Danny Perello
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bbblasterfire wrote:
Yes, but they should trigger simultaneously as they are both on the board.

The wording on all the cards are equally precise. I don't see a case where one is worded more precise than another.

This is the exact sort of situation where it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the ruled that two Stings gave you 2x the æmber, not because it would make sense linguistically but precisely because it wouldn't. They've proven in the past that the actual language is secondary to how they wanted the card to work, so it's very possible it could be ruled you get the æmber twice.

Understand that if it does go this way though it is in direct contradiction to what is actually written on the card...
 
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Bob Rademaker
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bbblasterfire wrote:
Yes, but they should trigger simultaneously as they are both on the board.

The wording on all the cards are equally precise. I don't see a case where one is worded more precise than another.


Yes equally precise, but when the first The Sting triggers, it has already gained all that might have been gained with additional The Sting triggers. The amount of Aember required to forge that key is all that there is available to gain from any number of The Sting in play.
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Nushura
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Relax wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
Yes, but they should trigger simultaneously as they are both on the board.

The wording on all the cards are equally precise. I don't see a case where one is worded more precise than another.

This is the exact sort of situation where it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the ruled that two Stings gave you 2x the æmber, not because it would make sense linguistically but precisely because it wouldn't. They've proven in the past that the actual language is secondary to how they wanted the card to work, so it's very possible it could be ruled you get the æmber twice.

Understand that if it does go this way though it is in direct contradiction to what is actually written on the card...


No, two stings cannot give you two times the amber because each one instructs you to place the amber somewhere else: the first one makes that the amber instead of returning to the pool it goes to your pool. The second one triggers and makes that instead of going to your pool it goes to....your pool.

I know the game is a 2-player game....but just for the sake of mental gymnastics imagine a 3 player game in which 2 players have The Sting in play: the third player makes a key and then we would need a ruling to see where it goes....but we are still choosing where the amber that we paid has to go. We would not grab any additional amber from the pool.
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matt tolman
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I think some people are overthinking this. The best way to think about it is that you actually don't get 2 each time you fight, but get 1, twice. They don't really "stack", they just both "work". The effects don't consider each other, and there is no reason to assume they would.
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Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
waxbottle wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.


Library Access is worded the same way and stacks.


Phase shift was ruled as being able to be played multiple times and stack. That one is even worded more strictly in favor of a once per turn.

If Phase shift stcks. This stacks.


Phase shift doesn't stack. It is one card played after another. It doesn't have a lasting effect.

With regards to 2 instances of The Sting, both are supposed to trigger simultaneously so theoretically it should double.

With regards to the OP's original question regarding Take Hostages, the way I see it is it toggles a global condition and should only work once as the language on it is very clear.

Either way, FFG needs to come up with rulings that are consistent across the board.

I personally think Library Access should be neutered, not allowing the effect to stack. It would make things more intuitive as you would simply have to follow what is written on the card without having to consider how many times it was already played on a given turn.
 
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Danny Perello
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Nushura wrote:
Relax wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
Yes, but they should trigger simultaneously as they are both on the board.

The wording on all the cards are equally precise. I don't see a case where one is worded more precise than another.

This is the exact sort of situation where it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the ruled that two Stings gave you 2x the æmber, not because it would make sense linguistically but precisely because it wouldn't. They've proven in the past that the actual language is secondary to how they wanted the card to work, so it's very possible it could be ruled you get the æmber twice.

Understand that if it does go this way though it is in direct contradiction to what is actually written on the card...


No, two stings cannot give you two times the amber because each one instructs you to place the amber somewhere else: the first one makes that the amber instead of returning to the pool it goes to your pool. The second one triggers and makes that instead of going to your pool it goes to....your pool.

I know the game is a 2-player game....but just for the sake of mental gymnastics imagine a 3 player game in which 2 players have The Sting in play: the third player makes a key and then we would need a ruling to see where it goes....but we are still choosing where the amber that we paid has to go. We would not grab any additional amber from the pool.

I'm not sure if you were responding to what I said or the text I quoted.

I agree that the number of Stings is irrelevant to the amount of æmber gained, 1 Sting or 5 you still only get the æmber your opponent actually spends. My comment was more a dig at past rulings and how, hypothetically, if they ruled multiple Stings gave multiples of æmber, while that would make no sense whatsoever when the language on the card is considered, it would be no more ridiculous than certain other rulings that have been, tentatively, already made.

To my understanding the wording on The Sting is perfectly clear. It cannot stack because it isn't generating anything, it is simply relocating resources once spent. Let's hope this time things actually fall on the side of the language used actually meaning what it means...
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Mick Sullivan
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Hmm. This is the second thread where you've argued about creating imaginary aember with The Sting. Do these threads stack?

(Edit: forgot to be productive.)
Yes, multiple copies of Take Hostages stack.
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Konrad Tee
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it stacks - like:


 
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The Sting - you get all æmber spent by your opponent when forging keys.

Let's say I've played two copies of The Sting.

Opponent spends 6 æmber to forge a key.

1st copy triggers - Did I get all æmber spent by my opponent? No. Get 6 æmber.

2nd copy triggers - Did I get all æmber spent by my opponent? Yes. Done.

The Sting would work differently if it said "You get 6 æmber when your opponent forges a key."

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mopeymatt wrote:
I think some people are overthinking this. The best way to think about it is that you actually don't get 2 each time you fight, but get 1, twice. They don't really "stack", they just both "work". The effects don't consider each other, and there is no reason to assume they would.

Like he↑ said, playing 2 copies of Take Hostages is just like playing any other two action cards in the same turn. Both will get resolved individually.
 
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B C Z
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Are there any instances of decks containing two copies of "The Sting"?
 
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Danny Perello
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byronczimmer wrote:
Are there any instances of decks containing two copies of "The Sting"?

https://keyforge-compendium.com/decks shows 200 right now...
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Relax wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Are there any instances of decks containing two copies of "The Sting"?

https://keyforge-compendium.com/decks shows 200 right now...


ok then
 
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Steven Irrgang
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bbblasterfire wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
waxbottle wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
nerman8r wrote:
Two.

I disagree. I say one. Nothing on the card gives me the impression that the effect stacks. It is like both cards turning on a light switch. You can't turn it on twice. It's on and the second card does nothing.


Library Access is worded the same way and stacks.


Phase shift was ruled as being able to be played multiple times and stack. That one is even worded more strictly in favor of a once per turn.

If Phase shift stcks. This stacks.


Phase shift doesn't stack. It is one card played after another. It doesn't have a lasting effect.

With regards to 2 instances of The Sting, both are supposed to trigger simultaneously so theoretically it should double.

With regards to the OP's original question regarding Take Hostages, the way I see it is it toggles a global condition and should only work once as the language on it is very clear.

Either way, FFG needs to come up with rulings that are consistent across the board.

I personally think Library Access should be neutered, not allowing the effect to stack. It would make things more intuitive as you would simply have to follow what is written on the card without having to consider how many times it was already played on a given turn.


The rulings are perfectly consistent. Everything stacks. The Sting stacks. It's just that when it stacks, what it does is:
You skip your forge step, and you skip your forge step.
You get all Aember spent by your opponent when forging keys, and you get all Aember spent by your opponent when forging keys.

Which means you really definitely get that 6 Aember. You could even say you get it again, except that it's the same 6 Aember, so by then you're getting it from yourself (though if it ever comes up, this isn't actually what happens). It's a replacement effect for that Aember going back to the supply, not an ordinary gaining of Aember

If it said something like "When your opponent forges a key, gain an amount of Aember equal to the amount they spent", then it would stack in a way that doubles your gains. But it doesn't say that, it says what's on the card.

Every card mentioned in this thread that stacks in a useful way is phrased such that you would expect it to stack in a useful way.
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CD Harris
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Relax wrote:
I'm not sure if you were responding to what I said or the text I quoted.

I agree that the number of Stings is irrelevant to the amount of æmber gained, 1 Sting or 5 you still only get the æmber your opponent actually spends.


Agreed. 2 (or more) Stings in play work just fine under the current rules:

RR, p. 7
Quote:
When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest.

RR., p. 9
Quote:
The active player makes all necessary decisions for all card abilities or timing conflicts that need to resolve during their turn.


Thus, the active player chooses which Sting takes effect first when the key is forged. That Sting causes all of the aember used to forge the key to be passed the Stings' controller. Then the second Sting triggers and can do nothing because the aember has already been moved. Even in the hypothetical 3-player game, this would work. The active player would simply choose which opponent got the aember just used by choosing that opponent's Sting to go off first.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Irgy wrote:
The Sting stacks. It's just that when it stacks, what it does is:
You skip your forge step, and you skip your forge step.
You get all Aember spent by your opponent when forging keys, and you get all Aember spent by your opponent when forging keys.


I think that's exactly what some of us mean by saying that it doesn't stack.

In my mind, if two cards "stack", there is a different effect than if you had just played one of the cards. If the effect is the same, whether you play one or two of the cards, then it "doesn't stack".
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