Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Round the world and home again-
That's the sailor's way!
Faster, faster, faster!

There's no earthly way of knowing
Which direction we are going
There's no knowing where we're rowing
Or which way the river's flowing.

Is it raining? Is it snowing?
Is a hurricane a-blowing?

Not a speck of light is showing
So the danger must be growing

Are the flames of Hell a-glowing?
Is the grisly reaper mowing?

Yes, the danger must be growing!
For the rowers still are rowing,
And they're certainly not showing
Any kind of happy slowing!


Introduction

This is not a trick game. It's a tricky game. But it's not a trick game. For example, the original Elftown game was a trick game, because it blurred what side you were on and what you should be doing. Likewise, the remix LJ and TFang did in 2018 was also a trick game for the same reason.

In contrast, I'd argue that LJ and Ryagic's recent This is a Trick Game was not so much a trick game as it was a tricky game. The reason for that is that, although the game had some unusual roles (recruiter and evil tow crier), the setup didn't actually punish you for making reasonable BGG werewolf assumptions and playing your role in more or less the normal way. It was a fairly normal game with some abnormal roles. You didn't have to hunt for secret meanings in your role details; it was the roles themselves that were odd.

I'd argue that the difference between trick games and tricky games is that trick games are meta. In a trick game, you have to be aware of the distinction between a role that views for wolves and one that views for max evils and have to keep in mind that if you're told "You view a player each night and will receive a result of wolf or not wolf" that nobody said the result you get would have anything to do with what your power does. Both trick games and tricky games can exploit assumptions you're making about how BGG werewolf normally works, but in trick games the deception extends to how the roles and rules are written. Or in other words: if the mod tries to fool you, that's a trick game; if you fool yourself, that's a tricky game.

Now, there's a third category of games that are sometimes called trick games- I believe incorrectly. These can be described as "games that aren't what you signed up for". An example would be a hidden roles werewolf game that ends up being a VIP game. Another example would be what I did in PLEASE TAKE OFF YOUR HAT by saying that chats would only be shared with people who were in them and then adding people into chats invisibly. (I, uh, shouldn't have done that. Sorry guys.) Players sometimes call these games "trick games" because they feel like they've been tricked into signing up for one thing and then playing something else, but I think they're actually a third category- maybe false advertising. (Yeah, I've been guilty of this a few times. I'll try to do better.) Now, sometimes having sufficiently novel mechanics can feel like a false advertising game, but I think that's generally caused by faulty set design that takes away player agency by concentrating too much power in the new mechanics in the hands of a few players. I've done that before too (Till We Have Faces, PLEASE TAKE OFF YOUR HAT again) and I'm trying not to do it any more.

Some games are unintentionally false advertising games. Hopefully I've avoided being a false advertising game by including the note that this is a tricky game.

A fourth category of game sometimes called a trick game is what I prefer to call "puzzle games". Puzzle games are simple: They are games in which a team (usually by not always good)must come to a single key realization about the setup or mechanics in order to win or gain a significant advantage. Another team (usually but not always evil) wants this realization to remain hidden. An example of a puzzle game would be my old game Misanthropy. There, the key realization was, "(Almost) all of us are neutral", and whoever figured it out first had a significant advantage.

There's probably a lot more work that can be done to flesh out these categories, but let's summarize here:

- Trick games seek to mislead you about the game or your role
- False advertising games end up being very different games then the rules led you to expect
- Tricky games diverge from BGG werewolf norms
- Puzzle games have a key realization about the mechanics that you need to succeed at the game.

Can there be some overlap here? Sure- a lot of trick games are also false advertising games, which is why some people hate them. Many trick games include puzzle elements. You can have a puzzle game which is also a trick game, A tricky game that is also a false advertising game, a puzzle game that is a tricky game, or a trick and tricky game that is also a puzzle and false advertising game.

The goal of this game is to be a tricky game and not any of the other three.

Let's apply this analysis to the recently completed Oh Come, All Ye Werewolves. Where does it fall in this categorization?

Here are the roles of that game:

ortho_ wrote:
ROLE SET

Evil:

Santa Claus - Brutal Werewolf; Must give out a gift each night (including n0) from the following options:
- Player gains a chat with a random evil (player is not aware that chat partner is evil)
- Player's next night action (if it exists) will be blocked
- Player loses his or her vote for that day

Must use each gift before being able to re-use gifts. Must target all eligible players before repeating targets. May target wolves.

Mrs. Claus - Werewolf; Must give out a gift each night (including n0) from the following options:
- Player gains a chat with a random other player
- Player may zombie post for 1 day if killed during the next day/night cycle
- Player gains +1 vote for that day

Must use each gift before being able to re-use gifts. Must target all eligible players before repeating targets. Cannot target wolves.

Buddy the Elf - Wolf Cub; Knows the identities of the wolves. Promotes to full Werewolf on either the death of the first wolf OR being targeted by the night kill.

Pete Davidson as Rudolph the Sociopathic Red Nosed Reindeer - Full Role Sorcerer; Gets a random villager n0.

Good:

Ebenezer Scrooge - Wolf Seer; Views for wolf/not wolf. Gets a random non-wolf n0.

Frosty the Snowman - Aux Seer; Views for aux/non aux. Gets a random non-aux n0.

Good King Wenceslas - Brutal Hunter

The Grinch - Good Chat Maker; Each night, including n0, may target two players to open a 1 day chat between them. May not self-target.

7 Reindeer - Vanilla villagers.


Was this a trick game? No. All of the roles did exactly what they said, without any weird exceptions or shenanigans. Was it a false advertising game? No, the rules basically outlined what to expect without problems.

Was it a tricky game? Yes, because of the Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus roles. It's a very common assumption on BGG that if you have two roles which are a mirror image of each other, that either both are good or one is good and one is evil. So if you have two roles handing out presents, most people will intuitively guess that one is good and one is evil, which is exactly what happened during the game. But this is just an assumption. Nobody wrote it down anywhere or promised it. It's a barrier that exists purely in players' minds.

Now, you could argue that this element qualifies Oh Come as a puzzle game, but I don't believe so. Realizing that both present-givers are evil doesn't solve the game for you or even give you a strong advantage. It just lets you catch another wolf. So I would classify Oh Come as a tricky game and none of the others.

That's what I'm going for here, too.

Rules

(Shamelessly stolen from LJ and Ryagic without permission and with no intention of returning them.)

Things that will be in the game:
- At least one wolf
- At least one sorcerer
- At least one wolf seer
- At least one hunter-type
- At least one priest-type
- At least three villagers, possibly with hidden attributes
- At least two other unique roles not any of the others previously listed
- A standard daily lynch
- A nightkill
- A majority good team that is trying to kill the max evils
- A minority evil team that wants parity with good (hunters excepted)

Things that may be in the game:

Brutals: No more than three.
False reveals: Up to two of the following - A Mimic, a role that can target other players to change their death reveals, a jester.
False views: Up to two of the following - a tinker, an alpha wolf, a role that can target players to mess up their views and/or views of them. Any non-seer good player can be a tinker, which causes any single-target view of them to be reversed. Multi-target views are no affected.
Hidden Role Information: Only villagers can have hidden role information. Hidden role information will not be revealed on death. See below for more about hidden role information.
Items: Up to seven players will begin the game with items.
Neutrals: Up to two of the following - Blob, Bloody Mary, Chupacabra, Count Dracula, Cult Leader, Creepy Girl, Dopplegänger, Dopplegänger, Hoodlum, Tanner/Tom Vasel combination, Underdog, Vampire, Zombie. These roles will be reasonably close to their normal BGG style, if present. All neutrals will be black hats.
Novel Mechanics: ??? - Are there really any here? Or did the mod add this line just for paranoia?
Playing after death: There may be up to two powers able to allow players to continue to affect the game after their death.
Toughs: No more than three.
Vote manipulation: Up to two players may have the ability to affect the tally in ways other than the normal vote. This doesn't include items. Adjusted tallies are not posted.
Other Stuff: What do you want to know about?


Everybody will know their victory conditions at the start of the game and will be informed if their victory conditions change.
Roles are assigned randomly.
Reveals on death are by default alignment only and only on lynch, but the game will begin with at least one other method of getting information on the dead (for example, a passive or active priest).
The game is not over until the mod says it is over.
Players should check the modchat each dawn before posting in the thread.
Tiebreaker is the "Past Accusations" rule: In the event of a tie, both tied players have the total number of votes they had in the final public (ie before vote manipulation) tally added to their total. If they are still tied, LHLV. Past accusations only apply if there is a tie and are considered to have a vote position number of 0.
No outright mod lies. None of the things above are deliberately misleading.
I'll probably refuse to answer mod questions during the game that aren't specifically about your role information, and only in private.
Here is the villager role PM:
Quote:
You are a villager. You have no powers that you know of.

This is not either of the setups that I sent to LJ or Ryagic, so they can play if they want.
Schedule when full. Won't run concurrently with Oh Hell No.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 0/15.
TwoMil's Standard Rules

Zombie Posts
No zombie posts, please, including generic "Bah!" posts.

Comments on Balance
N/A, game is hidden

General Game Policies
No out of game promises, threats, blackmail, negotiations, predictions, or other such shenanigans. That includes you, fugue.
No out of game communication.
No personal attacks.
If you deliberately take offence at something innocuous because you have a personal agenda, please reconsider. Guilt-tripping other people is cruel; most people here are playing for fun and are amiable people, please don't darken the thread with needless strife.
If you have a problem with the attitude or play of another player and you cannot quickly resolve it in thread, please talk to me in modchat rather than escalate matters.
Please apologize when you've offended someone, even if you can't see why what you said would cause offense. You can at least be sorry that someone is upset.
Do not swear at other players. If you swear, you will get a warning. If you ignore the warning, something bad will happen to you.
Play to win the game.
No direct quoting from Cassandra.
No hard, artificially assisted encryption.
Balance not guaranteed.
Post or be replaced.
No deleting posts. Small edits only, and please explain them.
Ask mod questions in red or some other easy-to-see color.
All-claims are not against the mod's intention for the game.
I do not believe in deleting game chats. If there are things you don't want someone to read after the game don't post them in chat.
No zombie posts.
No posting during the no posting period, especially the one before night action deadline and dawn (I hate dawn snipes).
Geekmail for orders is okay.
No size 0 or white font.
Keep your nose clean.
Don't do drugs.
Abide by rule 13 and the TwoMil Werewolf Code.
I am a potato.

TwoMil Werewolf Code

1. Don't be a jerk.
2. If someone is a jerk to you, forgive them.
3. If someone points out that you're being a jerk, stop being a jerk.
4. You sound more offensive to other people than you do in your own head.
5. Since #4 is the case, you should stop antagonizing people way before you think you've reached the limit for doing so.
6. Other people makes mistakes, and so do you, so you should help the other person learn to do better in the future instead getting angry with them.
7. This is just a game. There's no need to get worked up over it.
8. Other people on your team have worked hard at trying to win this game. Don't poop on their efforts.
9. It's more important to be friends with someone than it is to win an argument in the game.
10. A game which is not both won and lost by friends is a failed game.
11. Always play to win.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you notice this text, geekmail me and you might get a prize.
Up to five villagers may have hidden attributes, and each villager with hidden attributes may have up to three of them. Here's a list of possible hidden attributes:

Apprentice - Promotes to something when a certain role dies.
Avenging Angel - Gets a one-shot nightkill after death.
Black Hat - Nothing will be revealed when this villager dies.
Charismatic - This villager's vote counts as two votes.
Decisive - Vote to lynch will kill tough players.
Dr. Boom - On death, blows up the last player they voted for. Nothing happens if that player is dead.
Golem - This player cannot be nightkilled.
Haunt - After death, this villager may open a chat with a player of their choice each night.
Hero - Survives until the next dusk after death. Becomes aware of status on being targeted for death.
Hollow - This villager dies if viewed by the wolf seer or sorcerer.
Idiot - This villager's vote is always moved to the player leading the final end-of-day vote tally.
Jester - Reveals as the last person they voted for on death, even if that player is dead.
Martial Artist - Can only be killed by standard lynch or nightkill.
Martyr - This player dies in place of a designated other player.
Memory - This player's vote does not count at game start. They survive the first death and their vote begins to count.
Pacifist - This v illager's vote does bot count.
Passive Priest - Provides for death reveals while alive.
Power Activator - This villagers allows some other player to use a certa in power while alive.
Prince - This player cannot be lynched. They become aware of this if they survive a lynch.
Tinker - All single-target yes/no views of this villager are reversed.
Tough - This villager will survive 1 death. They will be informed when their tough is gone.
Scapegoat - The first time there is a tied vote, there is no lynch and this player dies.
White Hat - This villager's role is always revealed on death.
Zombie - After death, this player may make a nightly witch block of a player of their choice. Cannot repeat targets on consecutive nights.
??? - Up to one ???.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cassandra Project
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 0/15.
Player List According to Cassandra:
Amekins
BerenCamlost
Felice Si
Kortemaki
SerWave
spj91
Syntax3rror
whirlingdervish

8 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://cassandrawerewolf.com/game/2125419
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 5/15.
0.3333333333...% full!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kirk Monsen
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 6/15.
zombie My ears are burning zombie
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
...---...
Canada
flag msg tools
Doesn't everything die at last, and too soon? Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 6/15.
MunchWolf wrote:
zombie My ears are burning zombie


Do they also have hair growing out of them? Maybe you need to join a werewolf game as therapy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 6/15.
MunchWolf wrote:
zombie My ears are burning zombie


If you join, I promise not to do anything worse to you than you've done to your players.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 7/15.
twomillionbucks wrote:
0.3333333333...% full!


I was bad at math last week.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Louisiana
flag msg tools
badge
Great Scott!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Almost, but not Quite, a Trick Game - TwoMil rips off LJ and Ry. 7/15.
twomillionbucks wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
0.3333333333...% full!


I was bad at math last week.

More than halfway there now!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.