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Subject: Looking inside the bag rss

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John Honey
United States
Arkansas
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Do you allow a player to look inside his bag at the unit coins that are in there? Obviously not while drawing coins, as that has to be random. I mean looking just to check which units are in his own bag.

Of course, you can figure out which ones are in there already, just by adding up your coins that are NOT in the bag, and subtracting from the total that were available. It's just math. So really looking in the bag is just a shortcut to what you could figure out anyway.

So far we do not allow it, however, in our games. You can "feel" the outside of yours and your opponents bag to count how many are left, though.

My thought is: what's in YOUR bag is information you can know anyway by counting your coins not in the bag, so it's just faster to look in it (again, obviously not while drawing, and you should re-shake the bag well after looking to randomize).

You're not gaining info by looking that you couldn't know anyway. You're just doing it faster, for everyone.

Thoughts?
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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Yes, because there is no genuine reason not to. If a player is taking too long due to constantly looking in their bag, that might be a reason to rule against it. The fact that the bags are so dark might make it hard to easily see, and it might take time to properly check out all the contents.

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J. Mowery
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Hermitage
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I don't believe the bag is there to add a memory element to the game. It's there for you to decide what goes in it and induce randomness by drawing from it.

I'd say definitely look in your bag if you want.
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David Thompson
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Centerville
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Yea, you can look inside your own bag. All the information is available to the active player about their own coins. They can deduce what's in their bag by looking at the supply, coins that have been removed, face up discards, and face down discards. So there is no reason to forbid a player from looking in their bag.
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Steve Lopez
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johnbhoney wrote:
So far we do not allow it, however, in our games. You can "feel" the outside of yours and your opponents bag to count how many are left, though.


In our games you can feel your own bag, but not your opponent's. (Uh-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh. There. Got that out of the way.) Neither player can look into either his or his opponent's bag. That prevents coin manipulation (either deliberate, accidental, or subconscious). We play that it's up to you to remember what's in your coin bag without looking. Realistically, one should be able to figure it out anyway.
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John Honey
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Arkansas
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LuckyStrike wrote:
johnbhoney wrote:
So far we do not allow it, however, in our games. You can "feel" the outside of yours and your opponents bag to count how many are left, though.


In our games you can feel your own bag, but not your opponent's. (Uh-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh. There. Got that out of the way.) Neither player can look into either his or his opponent's bag. That prevents coin manipulation (either deliberate, accidental, or subconscious). We play that it's up to you to remember what's in your coin bag without looking. Realistically, one should be able to figure it out anyway.


Haha, pun intended, I'm sure! Right, since you can figure it out anyway (what's in your bag), it seems just more efficient to look, instead of doing the math. As long as you re-shake your bag to randomize, I'm thinking we may start allowing it. It should reduce the "admin" time on some games, so to speak.
 
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Quinn Swanger
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Holly Springs
North Carolina
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LuckyStrike wrote:
johnbhoney wrote:
So far we do not allow it, however, in our games. You can "feel" the outside of yours and your opponents bag to count how many are left, though.


In our games you can feel your own bag, but not your opponent's. (Uh-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh. There. Got that out of the way.) Neither player can look into either his or his opponent's bag. That prevents coin manipulation (either deliberate, accidental, or subconscious). We play that it's up to you to remember what's in your coin bag without looking. Realistically, one should be able to figure it out anyway.


Heh, you said bag.
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David desJardins
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Burlingame
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johnbhoney wrote:
My thought is: what's in YOUR bag is information you can know anyway by counting your coins not in the bag, so it's just faster to look in it (again, obviously not while drawing, and you should re-shake the bag well after looking to randomize).


If you neatly arrange the tokens in play and that have been destroyed, it's actually faster to figure out what's in the bag by looking at everything else.
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Alan Eshelman
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Windsor Heights
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DaviddesJ wrote:
If you neatly arrange the tokens in play and that have been destroyed, it's actually faster to figure out what's in the bag by looking at everything else.

Agreed. Looking in the bag is cumbersome at best, and can be used to manipulate draws. No one in my gaming group has felt the need to look in the bag anyway, not sure why it would be encouraged when it's hardly needed.
 
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John Honey
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Arkansas
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DaviddesJ wrote:
johnbhoney wrote:
My thought is: what's in YOUR bag is information you can know anyway by counting your coins not in the bag, so it's just faster to look in it (again, obviously not while drawing, and you should re-shake the bag well after looking to randomize).


If you neatly arrange the tokens in play and that have been destroyed, it's actually faster to figure out what's in the bag by looking at everything else.


Yep, we do that too. Arrange the coin tray to have the front two rows blank at the beginning of the game. One row for each player's killed coins.
 
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John Honey
United States
Arkansas
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Alan Eshelman wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
If you neatly arrange the tokens in play and that have been destroyed, it's actually faster to figure out what's in the bag by looking at everything else.

Agreed. Looking in the bag is cumbersome at best, and can be used to manipulate draws. No one in my gaming group has felt the need to look in the bag anyway, not sure why it would be encouraged when it's hardly needed.


That's a good point. Perhaps we could say that if you look in the bag, then your opponent gets to do a shake or other randomizing on the bag before you draw.

To your point, it's never really needed. Just a shortcut, at times.
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