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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Winnu Bloodties Buff rss

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Zenjoy
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From talking to people on here and elsewhere, Winnu seem to be underpowered (I've not seen anything anywhere suggesting otherwise - if there is something and I've missed it, please link me).

So had an idea to make them maybe a little viable without going too crazy:

Bloodties:
* You do not have to spent Influence to gain the Custodian Token from Mecatol Rex
* While the Winnu are in play, the Influence cost to remove the Custodian token is increased by +3 (9 Influence; instead of 6).

The idea being other races CAN still get MR, but it will cost 50% more to do so - which should give the Winnu a bit more time to get MR without needing to make a suicide run at it to grab it turns 1-2.

Plus no need to change anything - just say the 6 on the custodians is a 9 :P
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Paul Militzke
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Very interesting. I like your Idea.
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Salman Qaisar
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Also maybe add that if Winnu take Mecatol Rex from any player, they take the 1VP custodian token.

Combine that with your 9 influence cost...
And basically if Winnu are playing...
Hands off Mecatol Rex, buddy boy!

They don't have to rush to MR, and can take it later if they want.

Other possible buffs:
- they can score objectives by controlling Winnu or MR
- Every status phase, if they don't control MR, they gain 2TGs (payment for their services as custodians)

So their faction revolves around MR, but is not dependent purely on getting it first.

Thoughts?
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Zenjoy
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Zalman wrote:
Also maybe add that if Winnu take Mecatol Rex from any player, they take the 1VP custodian token.

Combine that with your 9 influence cost...
And basically if Winnu are playing...
Hands off Mecatol Rex, buddy boy!

They don't have to rush to MR, and can take it later if they want.

Other possible buffs:
- they can score objectives by controlling Winnu or MR
- Every status phase, if they don't control MR, they gain 2TGs (payment for their services as custodians)

So their faction revolves around MR, but is not dependent purely on getting it first.

Thoughts?


Interesting idea on the 'take the Custodian Token' but I personally don't like it. That player paid 6 Influence for that 1 VP (or 9 if you use my original idea) and they should be rewarded for their incentive - else you are just discouraging EVERYONE from grabbing MR.

I personally much prefer your "Can get Objectives if they don't control MR" though it IS powerful if they start with it. Maybe have it be a racial effect that replaces their BB wormhole tech (I find that tech card EXTREMELY circumstantual in usefulness based on setup)? Gives the the option to abandon their HW if they need to, but doesn't make it a standard ability.

My only concern about making that a tech card is, could the Nekro virus exploit it? I don't think so, but it is one thing to consider.

I REALLY like the Trade-Good idea. It gives them resoruces to build a fleet to take back MR, suggesting they are fixated on taking MR above all else (once they have it, they chill out a bit). 2 TG seems good, not too much but also not an absurd amount that they give up on MR all together to get free money.

All in all, solid ideas!
 
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Casey Harmon
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La Salle
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I entertain the idea of modifying their starting and racial tech:

Lazax Gate Folding (Blue): During your tactical actions, if you do not control Mecatol Rex, treat its system as if it contains both an alpha and beta wormhole is adjacent to your Home System.

ACTION: If you control Mecatol Rex, exhaust this card to place 1 infantry from your reinforcements on Mecatol Rex.

Requirements: (2 Blue) Starting Tech
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Roger Reisinger
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All these ifea will boost Winnu and are good ideas. For me though simplicity is best. Someone else posted about letting Winnu start with ANY tech, knstead of a starting tech. This is the most flexible and easiest to implement.

Id take it one step further just to make it even more flexible. ‘Winnu start with any two level 1 techs, or any one level 2 tech’.

This way you can take MR first turn gauranteed if you choose the level 2, or you can be flexible with more starting tech but not guarantee getting to MR.
 
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Kinan Diraneyya
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Guys... Why are you trying to buff the Winnu? they are an average race, if anything, they are a bit stronger than average.
Take a look:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UgeHYZx_P0ex610MYnY-...

And if you don't care about the log, our experience (of over 50 games) didn't make us feel like they are weak either.
 
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Salman Qaisar
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They might be average strength.
But they are boring and one-dimensional.
So noone in my group wants to play as them.

We're trying to give them different paths, but still revolving around MR.
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Zenjoy
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Kinan_rod wrote:
Guys... Why are you trying to buff the Winnu? they are an average race, if anything, they are a bit stronger than average.
Take a look:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UgeHYZx_P0ex610MYnY-...

And if you don't care about the log, our experience (of over 50 games) didn't make us feel like they are weak either.


Nice! What would your group say makes them feel on par with the other factions?

Where are these stats from btw? A single group or a compilation?
 
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Kinan Diraneyya
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zfairborn wrote:
Kinan_rod wrote:
Guys... Why are you trying to buff the Winnu? they are an average race, if anything, they are a bit stronger than average.
Take a look:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UgeHYZx_P0ex610MYnY-...

And if you don't care about the log, our experience (of over 50 games) didn't make us feel like they are weak either.


Nice! What would your group say makes them feel on par with the other factions?

Where are these stats from btw? A single group or a compilation?

Only one member of our group plays them, but he is in love with them, he doesn't need anything further to tempt him, and his winrate with them is pretty decent, he just likes camping on MR and this race is simply that.

Those stats are a community log, any one can log games there, here is the original post:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1997473/did-you-know-twilig...


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Zenjoy
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Zalman wrote:
They might be average strength.
But they are boring and one-dimensional.
So noone in my group wants to play as them.

We're trying to give them different paths, but still revolving around MR.


Yup; essentially this.

My original idea (+3 Influence cost for rivals) was simply to help them get 1 VP easier, which comes with the bonus that agendas happen much earlier, without making it impossible for their rivals to put preasure on to grab it as well. It doesn't improve the Winnu at all - it just decreases the appeal for enemies to take MR (which is a buff in a round about way for the Winnu).

The discussion has gone into other areas since there - such as questioning if their Tech cards are actually useful (the wormhole one is VERY circumstantual, and relies on you having a Wormhole near you to have any effect at all) which I think is worth considering.
 
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Zenjoy
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Kinan_rod wrote:

Only one member of our group plays them, but he is in love with them, he doesn't need anything further to tempt him, and his winrate with them is pretty decent, he just likes camping on MR and this race is simply that.



What are some of his strategies to camp it? How early does he typically take MR? Does anyone play to counter him (i.e.: if he rushes MR, does anyone take his HW? If he delays his MR rush, does anyone grab MR before he does?)

What is his usual starting tech?

Does he use the Racial Tech's much (specifically the "wormhole" tech - how often does he use it?)
 
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Edward Nickson
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In my group's house rules we changed the Winnu significantly to make them more fun. No small fix would do it. Feedback on playtesting appreciated

Racial Abilities:

Blood Ties:
You do not have to spend influence to remove the custodians token from Mecatol Rex.

Focused Research:
After another player discards the custodian token from Mecatol Rex: gain one technology that player possesses ignoring all prerequisites or 4 trade goods.

Lazax Legacy:
Invasion: While you have a ship in a system, you do not need to commit or have ground forces to take control of an empty non hazardous planet.

Replacement Racial Tech:

Lazax Spacial Distortion (Y)
Action: Exhaust and place this card face down over a planet you control. That planet cannot be invaded or bombarded and units on it lose PRODUCTION until this card is readied.
Requires: 2Y

Lazax Nanite Infection (R)
All your non fighter ships without Bombardment gain Bombardment 7. Requires: 1R

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Colin Russell
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zfairborn wrote:

My only concern about making that a tech card is, could the Nekro virus exploit it? I don't think so, but it is one thing to consider.


The Nekro, having an extremely powerful defensive unit in their flagship could make good use out of this tech, by abandoning their home world and all-inning on mecatol rex. However, the Nekros thing is to take advantage of other factions technologies, and I don't think this case is anymore powerful than Arborec infantry, Non-Euclidean shielding, mirror computing or neuroglaive. Yeah, it may discourage the Winnu from getting the tech, but nekro already do that to other people.

tldr: strong, but not problematically so.
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