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KeyForge: Call of the Archons» Forums » Rules

Subject: Urchin vs. Pingle? rss

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If I play Urchin, does it get to Steal and æmber if my opponent has a Pingle in play? Thank you.
 
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Urchin:
Play: Steal 1

Pingle:
Deal 1* to each enemy creature after it enters play.

"After Play" would happen... after 'Play'

- Before Play
- Play
- After Play

So Urchin steals $1, then Pingle deals 1*, destroying Urchin.
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Sergio Perez
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byronczimmer wrote:
Urchin:
Play: Steal 1

Pingle:
Deal 1* to each enemy creature after it enters play.

"After Play" would happen... after 'Play'

- Before Play
- Play
- After Play

So Urchin steals $1, then Pingle deals 1*, destroying Urchin.


Unfortunately, this is not entirely correct.

The active player will decide the order of effect resolution as both "Play:" and the effect from Pingle Who Annoys creates a timing conflict. If the active player decides to resolve Pingle's effect first, Urchin's Play: effect will not resolve.
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I think both the explanations make sense and it is what we worked with logic from the wording and from the rules. What I seem to remember though, is that there is a funny timing regarding PLAY effects and TRIGGERED effects and, IIRC, the triggered effect happens first which would destroy Urchin before the Steal. 🤔
 
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Surge1000 wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Urchin:
Play: Steal 1

Pingle:
Deal 1* to each enemy creature after it enters play.

"After Play" would happen... after 'Play'

- Before Play
- Play
- After Play

So Urchin steals $1, then Pingle deals 1*, destroying Urchin.


Unfortunately, this is not entirely correct.

The active player will decide the order of effect resolution as both "Play:" and the effect from Pingle Who Annoys creates a timing conflict. If the active player decides to resolve Pingle's effect first, Urchin's Play: effect will not resolve.


How can you resolve something that is supposed to happen after first? I don't believe this is a situation where active player decides order.
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Ronaldo wrote:
I think both the explanations make sense and it is what we worked with logic from the wording and from the rules. What I seem to remember though, is that there is a funny timing regarding PLAY effects and TRIGGERED effects and, IIRC, the triggered effect happens first which would destroy Urchin before the Steal. 🤔


The first answer above is wrong because "Play:" effects and the effect from Autocannon and Pingle create a timing conflict. It is not accurate that "Play:" effects take priority over effects described as "after played" or "after enters play."

But in the instance where you are the active player, if you choose for Urchin's Play: effect to resolve before your (or your opponent's) Pingle's effect resolves, you will get to steal 1 Aember, then Urchin dies.
 
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bbblasterfire wrote:
Surge1000 wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Urchin:
Play: Steal 1

Pingle:
Deal 1* to each enemy creature after it enters play.

"After Play" would happen... after 'Play'

- Before Play
- Play
- After Play

So Urchin steals $1, then Pingle deals 1*, destroying Urchin.


Unfortunately, this is not entirely correct.

The active player will decide the order of effect resolution as both "Play:" and the effect from Pingle Who Annoys creates a timing conflict. If the active player decides to resolve Pingle's effect first, Urchin's Play: effect will not resolve.


How can you resolve something that is supposed to happen after first? I don't believe this is a situation where active player decides order.


"Play:" effects do not resolve before "after enters play" or "after play" effects. According to the rules, "Play:" effects occur immediately after the card enters play. That creates a timing conflict with the other effects mentioned above.

Brad has already issued a ruling on this, but it was related to Autocannon and Urchin. Essentially, this is the same scenario.

"Play:" effects are NOT "comes into play" effects like in some other similar games. In fact, if the "Play:" ability was instead named "After Played:," it would more closely resemble the actual mechanism.

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p5:
PLAY ABILITIES
Some cards have a bold “Play:” ability. Such abilities resolve after the
card’s Æmber bonus is collected, if it has any, and immediately after the
card enters play.

p9
ACTIVE PLAYER
The active player is the player taking the current turn. The active player
makes all necessary decisions for all card abilities or timing conflicts that
need to resolve during their turn.


The player of the Urchin is the Active player (as otherwise, Urchin couldn't be played).


 
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Surge1000 wrote:
bbblasterfire wrote:
Surge1000 wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Urchin:
Play: Steal 1

Pingle:
Deal 1* to each enemy creature after it enters play.

"After Play" would happen... after 'Play'

- Before Play
- Play
- After Play

So Urchin steals $1, then Pingle deals 1*, destroying Urchin.


Unfortunately, this is not entirely correct.

The active player will decide the order of effect resolution as both "Play:" and the effect from Pingle Who Annoys creates a timing conflict. If the active player decides to resolve Pingle's effect first, Urchin's Play: effect will not resolve.


How can you resolve something that is supposed to happen after first? I don't believe this is a situation where active player decides order.


"Play:" effects do not resolve before "after enters play" or "after play" effects. According to the rules, "Play:" effects occur immediately after the card enters play. That creates a timing conflict with the other effects mentioned above.

Brad has already issued a ruling on this, but it was related to Autocannon and Urchin. Essentially, this is the same scenario.

"Play:" effects are NOT "comes into play" effects like in some other similar games. In fact, if the "Play:" ability was instead named "After Played:," it would more closely resemble the actual mechanism.



Did Brad rule that Urchin gets to Steal if an Autocannon is in play?
 
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Ronaldo wrote:


Did Brad rule that Urchin gets to Steal if an Autocannon is in play?


Same situation. Timing conflict. Active player decides.
 
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Can someone explain a time when the Active Player (who is the player playing the Urchin card) would choose to NOT steal and instead drop a creature that is then immediately destroyed?

I get the 'Active Player Decides' stuff, and that's become a rallying cry.
However, look at the actual question:

"If I Play an Urchin in this situation, does it get to Steal?"

The answer to that question is:

Yes.

and for the pedantic:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to.

and for the really pedantic:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to, and if they didn't, they shouldn't have played that card.

- - -

Also, I disagree that there is a timing conflict.
Play abilities happen immediately after the Card enters play.
Pingle (and Autocannon) happen 'after' the Card enters play.

'immediately' indicates to me exactly that - it is part of the 'Play' and cannot be severed or interrupted by anything else.

(aka: there is no timing conflict)

- - -

Where are the official FFG announcements of cards being changed from the rule book by this "Brad" person?

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byronczimmer wrote:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to, and if they didn't, they shouldn't have played that card.


There are cases where not stealing is the correct play. Consider the case where you are at five aember and you want to get to six but not above, since you know the opponent has Burn the Stockpile (opponent loses four if they have seven or more) in their deck. Aside from Pingle, there's also a Soul Snatcher in play (whenever a creature dies its owner gains one aember). Soul Snatcher is unavoidable, but stealing is not.

Sure it's a massive corner case, but it's cool that the nuance exists in the game.
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ShogunCharlie wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to, and if they didn't, they shouldn't have played that card.


There are cases where not stealing is the correct play. Consider the case where you are at five aember and you want to get to six but not above, since you know the opponent has Burn the Stockpile (opponent loses four if they have seven or more) in their deck. Aside from Pingle, there's also a Soul Snatcher in play (whenever a creature dies its owner gains one aember). Soul Snatcher is unavoidable, but stealing is not.

Sure it's a massive corner case, but it's cool that the nuance exists in the game.


I still maintain that there is no timing conflict.
Play effect happen after the card is played because we live in a universe that requires such causality, and is why "Play" effects happen immediately.

I think people are attempting to find nuance where there isn't any - and it's going to hurt the game's target audience (casual) who are not typically up on the latest minutia details decided after the game was designed and printed.

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byronczimmer wrote:
Can someone explain a time when the Active Player (who is the player playing the Urchin card) would choose to NOT steal and instead drop a creature that is then immediately destroyed?


I cannot think of anything immediately. However, that does not preclude that a situation could arise in the future in which this specific interaction could be more impactful. The more pertinent point though is the timing of "Play:" vs. "after enters play" or "after played" effects. There could potentially be a many more significant circumstances related to the timing of those effects.

byronczimmer wrote:
I get the 'Active Player Decides' stuff, and that's become a rallying cry.


It's being used inappropriately in many instances. I won't argue there.

byronczimmer wrote:
However, look at the actual question:

"If I Play an Urchin in this situation, does it get to Steal?"

The answer to that question is:

Yes.

and for the pedantic:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to.

and for the really pedantic:

Yes, if the person who played it wants it to, and if they didn't, they shouldn't have played that card.


It appears to me that you're moving the goal posts. Your answer was wrong because you stated that "Play:" effects resolve before effects from cards like Autocannon and Pingle Who Annoys. Yes, it seems unlikely that the active player would choose to resolve Pingle's effect before Urchin's, but that wasn't the reasoning you gave for your answer.

My intention was not to be rude but to correct misinformation given. You may consider that pedantic, but you simply made a rules mistake, and I offered a correction based upon further information given by the lead designer of the game.


byronczimmer wrote:
Also, I disagree that there is a timing conflict.
Play abilities happen immediately after the Card enters play.
Pingle (and Autocannon) happen 'after' the Card enters play.

'immediately' indicates to me exactly that - it is part of the 'Play' and cannot be severed or interrupted by anything else.

(aka: there is no timing conflict)


I made an almost identical declaration to yours in a prior thread. Why, I proclaimed, would the rules make it seem that there's a distinction between "immediately after the card enters play" and effects like those listed on Autocannon and Pingle ("after enters play")? The lead designer of the game, Brad Andres, clarified the timing between Autocannon's effect ("deal 1 damage to each creature after it enters play") and Urchin's Play: ability. He advised that this creates a timing conflict, and the active player decides the order of resolution. Thus, there is no timing priority of Play: effects over "after played" effects.
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Surge1000 wrote:
I made an almost identical declaration to yours in a prior thread. Why, I proclaimed, would the rules make it seem that there's a distinction between "immediately after the card enters play" and effects like those listed on Autocannon and Pingle ("after enters play")? The lead designer of the game, Brad Andres, clarified the timing between Autocannon's effect ("deal 1 damage to each creature after it enters play") and Urchin's Play: ability. He advised that this creates a timing conflict, and the active player decides the order of resolution. Thus, there is no timing priority of Play: effects over "after played" effects.


I find such FFG 'rules clarifications' this early in the life of the product to be unfortunate, and it means that unnecessary words (immediately) are added to the rules book.

Issues like this should not occur in a game this early in its life.

Has the community simply accepted the 'timing conflict' ruling, or was it challenged properly?


I'm frustrated - stuff like this is what ruined Android:Netrunner for me, and it seems endemic to FFG.


As to 'moving the goalposts', no I am not.

"Play" effects should be concurrent with playing the card - but that's impossible, so they happen immediately after, and the rules even say 'immediately after'. Then 'after play' effects can occur.

I've been consistent with that.
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Steven Irrgang
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Do the rules actually explicitly say anywhere that the word "immediately" actually means anything mechanically? In general sure, using the word gives a greater sense of urgency, but there's a few steps from that to defining two distinct and explicit game phases for resolving "immediate" effects and other effects, which are also immediate in the conventional sense of the word, but not explicitly called that.

The word "immediate" might just be there to avoid people thinking they can, for instance, play one creature, then play two more, then resolve the play effect of the first one - arguing that the effect resolves after you play the creature and it's still "after they played the creature".

If I say is "[A] is good", and then say "[B] is really good", have I actually said B is better than A? If I said one after the other then it's likely I think that, but what if I said one of those statements now and the other last week? I think it's the same thing with "immediate", it's two different sections of the rulebook it's not necessarily saying one is faster than the other.

If they wanted them to be ambiguously timed they certainly could have worded them more similarly. But also if they wanted there to be two separate steps of "immediate" and "immediate but not quite as immediate" they also really should have said so somewhere. To me the latter would be the more glaring omission.
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The word 'immediately' is used exactly 6 times in the rulebook:

OBJECTIVE
During the game, players use their cards to collect Æmber. Players use
Æmber to forge keys. The game ends immediately when a player forges
their third key, and that player wins the game.

PLAY ABILITIES
Some cards have a bold “Play:” ability. Such abilities resolve after the
card’s Æmber bonus is collected, if it has any, and immediately after the
card enters play.

KEYS
The first player to forge all three of their keys immediately wins
the game.

LEAVES PLAY
If a card has a “Leaves Play:” ability, the effect happens automatically
immediately before the card leaves play.

DESTROYED
When a card is destroyed, it is placed in its owner’s discard pile.
If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect resolves automatically
when the card is destroyed, immediately before it leaves play.

PLAY
When a card has a “Play:” ability, the effect occurs any time the card
is played. For creatures, artifacts, and upgrades, the ability resolves
immediately after the card enters play. For action cards, the ability
resolves, and then the card is placed in its owner’s discard pile.
If an ability “plays” a card from a source other than hand, “Play:”
abilities on the card resolve. If an ability “puts” a card “into play,”
“Play:” abilities on the card do not resolve.


It's clear to me, based on the rules, that 'immediately' creates a bond between two moments in time that cannot be severed by any other game function.
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I am not arguing that the rules are entirely unambigous. Like you, I assumed that the usage of the word "immediately" was intended to indicate a distinction between "Play:" effects and "after enters play" or "after played" effects. The lead designer of the game indicated otherwise though. "After enters play," "after played" and "immediately after enters play" resolve within the same timing window (for lack of a better term - the rules do not explicitly use the phrase "timing window"). No distinction is intended, apparently. I can understand how someone could come to either conclusion.

And you're free to play however you want, but if you play in a competitive event, expect the guidance as noted above to be enforced. It's unlikely to have any considerable effect in a situation like Urchin vs. Autocannon (only in an edge case would the active player choose to not steal), but the timing could be relevant as it relates to resolving other "Play:" vs. "after played/after enters play" effects.


As an aside, here's something I find interesting. Given these timing rules, there is potential for a card with both a Play: effect and a Destroyed: effect to have its Destroyed: effect resolve without its Play: effect ever resolving. Consider the case above - If Urchin also had a Destroyed: effect, assuming the active player is playing the Urchin, he could choose to resolve Pingle/Autocannon first. That would trigger the Destroyed: effect, which would resolve. The Play: effect, however, would not resolve. Thus, an effect that triggers before a card leaves play can potentially trigger and resolve even though an effect that occurs after it enters play did not. To me, that's mind boggling, but its within the scope of the rules.
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byronczimmer wrote:
It's clear to me, based on the rules, that 'immediately' creates a bond between two moments in time that cannot be severed by any other game function.


Based on what about the rules? Your view that it creates a bond is not based on the rules at all. It's based entirely on your own view of what the word means. In fact, your quotes exhaustively demonstrate that the rules indeed do not say anything at all about the meaning of the word, nor give any suggestion that it's intended to imply priority over other otherwise simultaneous effects. The rules simply use the word a (small) number of times, in places where it could well be just for emphasis.
 
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I have a déjà-vu that this has been already discussed here, but I did not find any evidence.

My interpretation would also be: active player decides. I see no intentional difference between "after enters play" and "immediately after enters play", so the rule "active player decides when there is a timing conflict" applies.

Does someone have a link or screenshot to the official answer from Brad Andres?
 
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Well, since we know at this point that "immediatly" happens before everything else (as was already made "clear" [in a sense] in the case of destroy effects), then i guess that there's nothing to decide here: Urchin goes first no matter what.

 
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Wolle_Petterson wrote:

Does someone have a link or screenshot to the official answer from Brad Andres?


https://www.facebook.com/groups/keyforge/permalink/591520647...

Whether "immediately" should or shouldn't make a difference is a matter of opinion. But we know that it doesn't.

So let's give a TL;DR of the facts:
- "Play:" abilities trigger "immediately after a creature enters play"
- this is simultaneous with other "after a creature enters play" abilities
- when things happen simultaneously, active player decides
- the active player is playing the Urchin in this case, so he'll basically always want to steal before being destroyed
- sometimes you might not want to trigger the Play: (for example when playing a Neutron Shark while there is a Hunting Witch in play) so it's important to know this distinction, even if it is pedantic
 
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Sarchiapon wrote:

Well, since we know at this point that "immediatly" happens before everything else (as was already made "clear" [in a sense] in the case of destroy effects), then i guess that there's nothing to decide here: Urchin goes first no matter what.


That's just an interpretation, a practical way to think about it. But even if you remove the "immediately" from the destroyed rule, it still works the same.

The key is that Destroyed: are the only things that trigger before the creatures leaves play. That's why they happen before anything else, not because there's an "immediately" in it.

Otherwise, you'll come to the wrong conclusions, like you just did - because we know that Urchin and Pingle/Autocannon are simultaneous.
 
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dukman wrote:
Sarchiapon wrote:

Well, since we know at this point that "immediatly" happens before everything else (as was already made "clear" [in a sense] in the case of destroy effects), then i guess that there's nothing to decide here: Urchin goes first no matter what.


That's just an interpretation, a practical way to think about it. But even if you remove the "immediately" from the destroyed rule, it still works the same.

The key is that Destroyed: are the only things that trigger before the creatures leaves play. That's why they happen before anything else, not because there's an "immediately" in it.

Otherwise, you'll come to the wrong conclusions, like you just did - because we know that Urchin and Pingle/Autocannon are simultaneous.


I see no difference between this case and the Bad Penny / Yxilo Bolter one, and that case was "solved" (in a sense, i'll give you that) by pointing out that the "immediatly" of Destroy effects goes first. So, i'm just reasoning out the "immediatly" of Play effect goes first, while the "after it enters plays" goes second.

And i can't see what's your point with that "only things that trigger" thing. If Pingle is not on the board, the Play effect of the Urchin is the only thing that trigger, exacly like the Destroy effect of Bad Penny is "the only thing that trigger" if Bad Penny is destroyed while no other effects in involved is the process. So what's the difference?
 
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Sarchiapon wrote:

I see no difference between this case and the Bad Penny / Yxilo Bolter one, and that case was "solved" (in a sense, i'll give you that) by pointing out that the "immediatly" of Destroy effects goes first.


As I said, this is not why it was "solved" that way. It works that way because Destroyed: happen while the card is still in play (Bad Penny) while other things (like Bolter) only happen when the card leaves play. That's why BP happens first, not because there is an "immediately" in the rule. Remove the word "immediately" and literally nothing would change.

Sarchiapon wrote:
So, i'm just reasoning out the "immediatly" of Play effect goes first, while the "after it enters plays" goes second.


That's reasonable and could've been correct, but we know that it isn't. We now know how it works based on the ruling by the people running the game, so I see no point anymore in arguing that it doesn't work that way. "Immediately" is just "flavor text" with no mechanical effect on the game, we can call this sloppy rules writing but that's how it is.

Sarchiapon wrote:

And i can't see what's your point with that "only things that trigger" thing. If Pingle is not on the board, the Play effect of the Urchin is the only thing that trigger, exacly like the Destroy effect of Bad Penny is "the only thing that trigger" if Bad Penny is destroyed while no other effects in involved is the process. So what's the difference?


My point was that Destroyed: effects are "the only things that trigger / happen before the creature leaves play" when it is destroyed.
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