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1862: Railway Mania in the Eastern Counties» Forums » General

Subject: Charters - phase chart or no phase chart? rss

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Mike Hutton
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What do people prefer? The 1st edition had no phase chart on the charters (for reasons of clarity/aesthetics). But I've had conversations with a few people who would like them included.

For '62/EA it's a bit tricky as I can't easily include the number of trains as it differs for the 3 game "lengths". So would a chart without this, but with a card showing the # of each type of the train placed on the board be ok?

Or would you rather the charters were left uncluttered?

Don't know how to set up a poll, and it's not really a democracy. Just punting for opinions. Any constructive comments would be most welcome.
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Xeryus
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I always prefer to have a phase chart on the charters. We always play with a computer moderator so our charters are mostly empty so it becomes really easy to glance at the phase chart. It is always good to offload as much of the games rules onto the components IMO.
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Ron
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Visible information repeated outside the rules is always welcome.
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Greg Smith
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I asked this same question recently in the Facebook 18XX group regarding a design I was working on. The answers was roughly 50/50 in favour/not in favour, luckily as it's pnp I have the luxury of doing both and releasing double sided files and letting the 2.3 people who will print my work decide which to use or print.

Would GMT be open to a double sided option?
 
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Ron
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broggles wrote:
Would GMT be open to a double sided option?
Offer white blank stickers to cover the text ... ninja
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Paolo Russo
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printed separately.
board is already working smoothly, and charters are cluttered with money train and shares.
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Will Beckley
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Serpentium wrote:
printed separately.
board is already working smoothly, and charters are cluttered with money train and shares.
This, except to say: if printing a player aid for each player is not an option for whatever reason, printing on the charter is better than not having it anywhere in the player area. On the board isn’t good enough in my opinion, because if you’re sitting across the table, it does you no good. I’d rather not slide my stack of chips a couple inches to read the chart, but that’s better than getting out of my chair and walking halfway around the table.
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Len K
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Phase chart on the charters, please. Table space is scarce in 18xx
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Mike Hutton
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Wiyum wrote:
Serpentium wrote:
printed separately.
board is already working smoothly, and charters are cluttered with money train and shares.
This, except to say: if printing a player aid for each player is not an option for whatever reason, printing on the charter is better than not having it anywhere in the player area. On the board isn’t good enough in my opinion, because if you’re sitting across the table, it does you no good. I’d rather not slide my stack of chips a couple inches to read the chart, but that’s better than getting out of my chair and walking halfway around the table.
A separate player aid may be an option. Indeed, it may be preferable if it means we can include the number of trains for that particular game. We could put this on something about the size of a share certificate. If we produced these, would it be enough to mollify those who want a phase chart on the charter?

PzVIE wrote:
Offer white blank stickers to cover the text ... ninja
We could do something like this to produce 1862:Legacy shake...
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Scott Seifert
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We've had no issue with the phase summary cards and we splay our trains out anyway so the number remaining is clearly visible. Information really wouldn't be visible on the charter unless you grabbed an unused one (which there are plenty of).

Edit: I'm assuming this is a choice between the summary cards and having it printed on the charter; not a choice between nothing and printing it on the charter.
 
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J C Lawrence
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I don't like and don't use phase charts on charters. The charters are already piled & cluttered with stuff, making the data inaccessible; the space is too small to include the actual complete phase chart leaving what is included an abridged set that encourages errors around all the things not included; and the train-specific information is directly visible before the players in the pile of remaining train certificates.
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John Perry
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Mike Hutton wrote:

A separate player aid may be an option. Indeed, it may be preferable if it means we can include the number of trains for that particular game. We could put this on something about the size of a share certificate. If we produced these, would it be enough to mollify those who want a phase chart on the charter?

This would be my preferred solution: you want it, take it and it uses about as much space as a cert; you don't want it, leave it in the box.

If it is the same size/material as the cert. probably would not be any kind of production hassle either
 
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Eric Brosius
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I don't use phase charts on the charters very often, but then again I don't consider putting them on the charters to be an aesthetic faux pas. As has been mentioned above, charters are stacked full of stuff, so their aesthetics are more or less impossible to see during play.

So even if only a fraction of the players want them, I'd say put them on. It doesn't seem like something with a significant cost, other than the time of the person who has to make the change to the image files.

I do want the phase chart to be available in a stand-alone form, so that it's not necessary to leaf through the rule book in order to find it.
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Xeryus
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Eric Brosius wrote:
So even if only a fraction of the players want them, I'd say put them on.
This. The groups that clutter their charters with chips, trains, tokens etc. will not use the chart. But the groups that keep their charters relatively free will find huge utility in the phase chart being present. IMO that outweighs the "I don't use it so don't put it there".

You could always go for the option of having the phase chart on the charters and on a separate card. That way my group can chuck the cards while other groups can use them because thee chart on the charters are useless. There is no real downside to redundancy (except from manufacturing cost).
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J C Lawrence
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Eric Brosius wrote:
I do want the phase chart to be available in a stand-alone form, so that it's not necessary to leaf through the rule book in order to find it.
I specifically put it on the last/back page of the rules. The page that is visible if the rulebook is turned over.
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Randy Brown
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Usually, I'm in favor of having phase charts on company charters; I consult them regularly when (re)learning a game. Blank charters drive me crazy (why not use that space for something useful?)!

However, I quite like the background images on the 1862 charters. While not useful for game play, they do add a nice aesthetic touch that make the game a little nicer to look at on the table.

Furthermore, the question I'm most often asked are how many trains are in, so leaving that info out would make the charter of less use in games I've been a part of. I have never played with anything other than the full allotment of trains (I keep forgetting that there are other ways to play this game...but who'd want to make shorter or simpler?), which is easy enough to remember--just count down from 7.

RB
 
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Dave Berry
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I like having this information easily available. I also like the pictures on the 1862 charters, so the idea of a separate phase chart seems a good one.

If space is limited, then the elements on the current phase chart that I think are most important are (in order of priority):

- Phase name (obviously)
- trains rusted
- train limit (standard game)
- number of trains (normal game)
- tiles available*
- number of trains (short & long games)
- cost
- number of ORs/SR*
- train detail
- train limit (non-standard games)

* the tiles available could be indicated by colouring the rows in the table, in which case there wouldn't need to be separate entries. The number of ORs/SR is obvious from the turn record track and is standard 18xx anyway, so is not important.

For the number of trains, perhaps the chart could list them as 6/7/7, 5/6/6. 4/4/5, etc, instead of having separate columns?
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Dave Berry
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discoking7 wrote:
I have never played with anything other than the full allotment of trains (I keep forgetting that there are other ways to play this game...but who'd want to make shorter or simpler?)
I played the short game for the first time recently, and on that limited experience, I'd say that it certainly didn't make the game simpler! Of the three players, the two who had played the game before made mistakes based on assuming there would be more A and B trains available than there actually were.

Which options do other people play - short, normal or long - with how many players?
 
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Paolo Russo
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2-6 players, always full compliments of train.
Short / medium / long depending on players cour and time available

That is way I remade the table so that i quickly can setup the game
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/154144/1862-sintesi-regol...

#TRENI A-B-C-D:
2-5p short 6-5-4-3;
2-5p normal 7-6-4-3;
4-8p long 7-6-5-4;

#TRENI E-F-G-H: 3-2-1-∞
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Randy Brown
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daveberry wrote:
I played the short game for the first time recently, and on that limited experience, I'd say that it certainly didn't make the game simpler! Of the three players, the two who had played the game before made mistakes based on assuming there would be more A and B trains available than there actually were.
Dave, the simpler comment was meant to encompass the 1 or 2 train type scenarios (rather than short/long).

One of these days, I'll have to try out the short game. Our group often finishes the full game in around 4 hours, though some players push it well past that time. I find that we play pretty reliably 6 sets of rounds, with an occasional (though becoming more frequent) 5 sets/game, and a very rare 7 sets/game.

Removing trains should push it more comfortably into the 5 sets/game, but I'm not sure that would shave a lot of time off the clock. I'll have to give it a try.

I typically play 4p or 5p games, but I have also player a handful of 3p and 6p games, and one 7p game. Sadly, I have not managed to convince 7 other people to play the 8p game with me. Our lone 7p was a lot of fun, and took less than 5 hours. The game was essentially won by the awarding of P-Deal in the penultimate stock round, enabling the winning player to secure an extra share over the player with the otherwise strongest position (me). It was a very close and memorable game.

RB
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Richard Clyne
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That game was the first time I have ever played anything other then the normal game. In every other play, there wasn't even a discussion on the version to play.
 
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