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Human Punishment: Social Deduction 2.0» Forums » General

Subject: "Unrevealed" vs Hidden plus other gripes rss

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Mark Iradian
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So I played a few games in Tabletop Simulator of Human Punishment.

The term "unrevealed" can be a bit confusing for new players. I've noticed many times during our games that players would misinterpret the meaning and play the card incorrectly.

The main reason for this is due to the language being similar even though the meaning is different.

For the sake of simplicity and clarity, the term "hidden" should be used instead of unrevealed. This would make it easier for new players to grasp the terminology from both their IDs and Program cards.

Another gripe I have is the timing of the cards. There are no rules on what happens when multiple effects or happening. For example, I did notice many program cards do multiple ID reveals. If multiple ID cards are revealed, how are they resolved and in what order? Are they resolved immediately once they are revealed, or once the current action that forced the reveal is done?

What about changing target? Can I "switch" to the same target to delay my attack? Again, not answered in the rulebook when it should.

I almost feel like I need to write the rulebook myself because there are many gaps I've noticed throughout the game that wasn't answered anywhere in the rulebook. An FAQ helps, but I think a clear rulebook and well-written program cards would remove the need of an FAQ.
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Witold G
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MarkyX wrote:
For the sake of simplicity and clarity, the term "hidden" should be used instead of unrevealed. This would make it easier for new players to grasp the terminology from both their IDs and Program cards.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. A thousand times this. meeple

I'm not a native speaker (although I consider myself someone with a strong grasp of English language, at least when it comes to reading), so it's great to see someone else confirming what I felt from the very start, and I understand your post is based on the experience of playing with multiple native speakers.

I would probably add that - from my perspective - this affects not only new players, but it's a language thing in general. I'm familiar with the game from the very start (KS campaign), but every time I see this, I stop and go "Ok, it says unrevealed, so what does it mean? Is the card faceup or facedown?" - the word is completely unintuitive in this context, unlike "hidden".

It's confusingly similar to words like "uncovered" or "unearthed" - meaning exactly the opposite of "hidden". "Unrevealed" feels (again, not a native speaker, so my intuition may be wrong) more like "never revealed in the first place", instead of "not visible at this moment".
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Mark Iradian
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That is another good point. As someone who has a history of playing numerous CCG games and complicated games, Human Punishment doesn't explain enough with the numerous situations that arise especially when it comes to timing.

When complicated games like Scythe and Viticulture are much easier to understand due to a well-written rulebook compared to a game where the majority of the game is "take that" cards, there's an issue.

This isn't a complicated issue to fix either since the game is mainly text. You can almost throw the suggestions into a Google document.
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Stefan Godot
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Thank you for your feedback. I am not a naive speaker and in the native correction no one ever said something about problems with the word.
Maybe we will add a sentence in the rules book for this part and we must look for a better word in future games (the HP prequel will probably use the same wording because it is the same universe)

Oh and there will be a timing order in the new rules for more transparency^^
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Mark Iradian
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HatterM111 wrote:
Thank you for your feedback. I am not a naive speaker and in the native correction no one ever said something about problems with the word.
Maybe we will add a sentence in the rules book for this part and we must look for a better word in future games (the HP prequel will probably use the same wording because it is the same universe)

Oh and there will be a timing order in the new rules for more transparency^^
If you need a rules lawyer type of person, I'm willing to help. The groups I play with pick apart problems like this. It's not too late to edit the current rulebook or the words on the program cards.
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Des T.
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MarkyX wrote:
It's not too late to edit the current rulebook or the words on the program cards.
Huh? How would you know that?
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Mark Iradian
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
MarkyX wrote:
It's not too late to edit the current rulebook or the words on the program cards.
Huh? How would you know that?
Considering the expansion rulebook isn't even out yet and they are still working on it. It would be weird to send this to printers when the Kickstarter is still running.
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Des T.
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MarkyX wrote:

Considering the expansion rulebook isn't even out yet and they are still working on it. It would be weird to send this to printers when the Kickstarter is still running.
Oh, you were referring to the expansion. I thought you were talking about the core game.
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Witold G
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And what's even worse:

The game uses word "unreveal" as a verb - does this word even exist in English language? Doesn't seem like it does.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unreveal
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unrevea...
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&filt...
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unreveal?s=ts
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/unreveal
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Mark Iradian
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Perf wrote:
As I said, I'm willing to go through the rulebook and program cards.
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Jussi Palojärvi
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My exact thoughts when I first looked at rules. That wording is extremely confusing and I'm getting my sharpie soon enough to fix that 😂

Your question about timing is also spot on. What indeed happens for example in that situation you pictured? Should it go in play order, clockwise or counterclockwise if direction was changed... And I just took a look on new rulebook and it confirms that timing order is indeed resolved in clockwise order starting from active player.
 
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