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Battle for Rokugan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bluff-attacking your own coastal border for "defence" rss

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Temar Anger
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Is it allowed to place token(s) on the coastal border of your own province?

The purpose may be to prevent other to attack from the sea.

The other reason for that may be the situation, when you are planning to give up control of that province (to pay for Shadowlands card's effect), and then immediately re-capture it.
 
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Cracky McCracken
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You're not allowed to attack yourself, so as your opponent I would point out that you're illegally placing that combat counter.

But, I don't have the rules with me... it's an interesting question OP
 
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Seth Goodnight
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I would say no. Page 7 says:
Quote:
When placing a token on a border, the player should place the
token in the center of the border, orienting the token so its
arrow points toward the province they are attacking.
There's no other province to attack, so you can't place a token there. Then again that's assuming that you can't attack your own province, which isn't actually stated in the rules.

Common sense says no, the rules don't actually forbid it. Take your pick, I guess. *shrug*
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Temar Anger
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Thanks for your clarifications!
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Previous answers are wrong. Actual rule for navies says "To attack, a player can place a navy token on any coastal border. To defend, a player can place a navy token in a coastal province they control." So yes, you can place a token on a shore you control. If it's a navy, you're defending with it, it's not, it's removed after revealed.
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Eric deRuiter
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curtc wrote:
Previous answers are wrong. Actual rule for navies says "To attack, a player can place a navy token on any coastal border. To defend, a player can place a navy token in a coastal province they control." So yes, you can place a token on a shore you control. If it's a navy, you're defending with it, it's not, it's removed after revealed.
I think you are reading into that text and not taking into account the info learned in earlier sections such as the army rules. You can only defend by placing in the center of the province. The ‘any’ is to get rid of the requirement of adjacency when attacking with a navy, and previously mentioned rules that there has to be a province that is the target of the attack still applies here.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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Yeah, I see what you're saying about navies only counting for defense if/when played inside a region. But the word "any" is actually bolded in the rules, so I do think you can place a navy on your on shore, to prevent anyone else from doing so.
 
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Brad Lister
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Cracky wrote:
You're not allowed to attack yourself, so as your opponent I would point out that you're illegally placing that combat counter.

But, I don't have the rules with me... it's an interesting question OP
I would agree that it is probably an illegal placement, but as I read the rules, illegal placement is allowed. Illegally placed tokens are removed once all are revealed, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone from making an illegal placement for the purpose of blocking.

Of course,this may just be a weak point in the game's written rules and not an intended method of play.
 
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Jamie Pollock
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The placement of self attacking navies or self attacking armies smacks of being a little 'gamey' to me, so I don't think our group would allow it. I believe if you want to defend you have to place in the centre of province and if you want to attack you have to attack an opponent.

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Meduseld Edoras
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This boils down to "is it legal to attack yourself?". Which, thematically and mechanically, should be a no.

The only valid way to defend an attack is to place an army (or navy) token in a province you control. You cannot (should not be able to) attack your own province as a way of defending/negating enemy attacks.
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Curt Carpenter
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discojedi wrote:
This boils down to "is it legal to attack yourself?". Which, thematically and mechanically, should be a no.
Maybe. Thematically it could be like blocking the shipping lane.

I mean, thematically why is it that only one army can play on each border?
 
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Eric deRuiter
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I asked this question to the designer Molly Glover on the Fantasy Flight form for rules questions. She said there would be an updated FAQ to include this info, and here are her answers (my questions are in bold).

Is it possible to place a navy on a boarder to "attack" your own province in order to prevent another player from placing an attack there?

The FAQ clarifies that while you are allowed to place tokens illegally as a bluff, you still have to follow the rules for placing one of your tokens. The rules for navy tokens do emphasize that a player can place a navy token on any coastal border, but that is to clarify that you are not required to control an adjacent province to do so. Per the rules for army tokens, you cannot attack your own province, so you cannot place a navy token on the border of a province you control.

I think the underlying question is: Can tokens be placed in an illegal location, or must all plays appear legal until it is revealed what token was used?

All plays must appear legal. Otherwise, I don’t know why any player at the table would allow it.
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Curt Carpenter
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ridogi wrote:
All plays must appear legal. Otherwise, I don’t know why any player at the table would allow it.
That's tautological. The question is what plays appear legal. For that we rely on the rules. If the rules say a navy may be placed on any coastal border, that seems clear enough to me, and clear enough to override the rules for armies (navies aren't armies). But glad to see an official clarification.
 
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David Boeger
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I recently got this game and can't help but feel that the rulebook was such an afterthought that they just slapped together at the last minute. I feel like the reply from the designer especially highlights the fact that there are core ideas of the game which were simply never explained or detailed in the rules.

I feel like the rulebook should have gone something like this:

1) The legal placements of different token types by a player.

2) A statement that tokens of any type can be placed anywhere where a different token type played by the same player could be placed, so as to appear legally placed without actually following the placement rules specific to that token type.

3) The phase where you reveal and discard illegally placed tokens.

Instead, they gave us a half-butted version of #1, skipped #2, and casually mentioned #3 in the hopes that it would fill in all the blanks.

Anyway, at least we now have some decent clarification of the spirit of the game and what legal vs. illegal placement means.
 
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