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Subject: Finally got this to the table and a bunch of questions came up rss

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jumbit
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After much ado finally got this to the table last night. 3 players. Am I correct that only the Americans, British, and French are used?

How does a factory get serviced? The rules don't say. If a warehouse is serviced then the factory is as well?

What do the red lines mean? I couldn't find it. At first, we thought it was the boundaries of the international settlement, but as I know the geography of Shanghai and the red lines didn't include the French Concession.

A sex scandal will occur if the Lido Courtesan gets to the North China Daily Mail before the player. How does the timing work on this? How does the courtesan move around the board?

Thanks to whoever made the player aids; they were invaluable. But the Opium Den in Old Chinatown says if you voluntarily go there, you can hire the courtesan. Rules section 7.6 says you pay the fine of $40,000 and more freely next turn.

What happens when you're in the International Settlement and roll a 6 for your move and move to the racket instead of the trading posts? Nothing?

Can players cooperate to share the cost of contractors?

This one came up a lot. What happens when a player makes a deal with the shipping line and there are not enough boats?

During which phase do the monks collect their payments?

The currency trader sets his own rates? 10% is just a suggestion? When does this occur?

A player who looks at another player's money by using the North China Daily Mail, can he tell everyone?

At what point during the turn do the escape rolls from the airport happen?

What are the rules on screwing the other players in collusion? Can you reneg on your word at any time or are deals binding?
 
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jumbit wrote:
After much ado finally got this to the table last night. 3 players. Am I correct that only the Americans, British, and French are used?
ST is probably the nastiest game I have ever played. It's a thing of beauty.

Unfortunately I don't have my copy anymore, but I'll do what I can on memory.

Pretty sure you have the nations right; we played mostly three and four player games, and the Russians weren't always in play.

Quote:


How does a factory get serviced? The rules don't say. If a warehouse is serviced then the factory is as well?

Ooooh... nonononononono. A factory is serviced through cooperation with ship owners. Dealmaking. Enticements. Every manner of extortion you can think of. Make "co-operation" the only option.

Send a few radical monks to break up their vegetable stand. Offer them cash.

The game hinges on those shipments, and there are some grand multi-person deals spun to let them happen... but often, everyone loses.
Wrong answer; see below.
Quote:


What do the red lines mean? I couldn't find it. At first, we thought it was the boundaries of the international settlement, but as I know the geography of Shanghai and the red lines didn't include the French Concession.
Don't recall
Quote:

A sex scandal will occur if the Lido Courtesan gets to the North China Daily Mail before the player. How does the timing work on this? How does the courtesan move around the board?
The courtesan was always the subject of rules discussions. I know we ended up house ruling her, but I don't remember how.

Quote:

Thanks to whoever made the player aids; they were invaluable. But the Opium Den in Old Chinatown says if you voluntarily go there, you can hire the courtesan. Rules section 7.6 says you pay the fine of $40,000 and more freely next turn.
Even if you came to the Opium Parlor to hire the courtesan, you are starting your turn there, and must have paid your fines.
Quote:

What happens when you're in the International Settlement and roll a 6 for your move and move to the racket instead of the trading posts? Nothing?
I believe so.
Quote:

Can players cooperate to share the cost of contractors?
Sure... get your money envelope out often, and count it. I can't see under the table, so it's perfectly safe to...
*ahem* That is... not directly. You can give a player cash, though.
Quote:

This one came up a lot. What happens when a player makes a deal with the shipping line and there are not enough boats?
How unfortunate. Perhaps next year will go better. (Did I mention this was a nasty game?)
Quote:

During which phase do the monks collect their payments?
Don't recall.
Quote:

The currency trader sets his own rates? 10% is just a suggestion? When does this occur?
Anytime the trader wants.
Quote:

A player who looks at another player's money by using the North China Daily Mail, can he tell everyone?
Sure. He can tell them anything... it does not have to be truth.
Quote:

At what point during the turn do the escape rolls from the airport happen?
Dead last.
Quote:

What are the rules on screwing the other players in collusion? Can you reneg on your word at any time or are deals binding?
You must exchange any money or game piece included in the deal immediately, but anything promised to come later can be ignored by either party.
(I believe there are some exceptions in the seasonal rackets.)
 
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jumbit
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Radulla wrote:
jumbit wrote:
How does a factory get serviced? The rules don't say. If a warehouse is serviced then the factory is as well?

Ooooh... nonononononono. A factory is serviced through cooperation with ship owners. Dealmaking. Enticements. Every manner of extortion you can think of. Make "co-operation" the only option.
How, exactly? There's no "serviced" side to the counters.

We played that if the warehouse was serviced then the factory was as well, but I couldn't find anything about it.
 
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jumbit wrote:
Radulla wrote:
jumbit wrote:
How does a factory get serviced? The rules don't say. If a warehouse is serviced then the factory is as well?

Ooooh... nonononononono. A factory is serviced through cooperation with ship owners. Dealmaking. Enticements. Every manner of extortion you can think of. Make "co-operation" the only option.
How, exactly? There's no "serviced" side to the counters.

We played that if the warehouse was serviced then the factory was as well, but I couldn't find anything about it.
First, the answer that "A factory is serviced through cooperation ..." is dead wrong.

Please have a look at "Trading Pyramids" on page 5 of the rules.
You need to understand a "Trading Pyramid".

A Warehouse Pyramid consists of 2 Trading posts plus 1 warehouse. If the warehouse is serviced, it's a serviced Warehouse Pyramid, if not it's an unserviced Warehouse Pyramid.

A Factory Pyramid consists of 2 Trading posts plus 1 warehouse plus 1 factory. If the warehouse is serviced, it's a serviced Factory Pyramid, if not it's an unserviced Factory Pyramid.

Haven't looked through all other answers given ... some may be right, some may be wrong (no offense meant).

Seen that you asked about the red border lines - they mark the British Zone, the blue ones mark the French zone. See page 1 of the rules, 1.6 Map.

Please let me know if you've got any more questions.





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lucyfer wrote:

First, the answer that "A factory is serviced through cooperation ..." is dead wrong.
Thank you for the correction; my recollection was not as strong as I thought.shake
 
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Radulla wrote:
lucyfer wrote:

First, the answer that "A factory is serviced through cooperation ..." is dead wrong.
Thank you for the correction; my recollection was not as strong as I thought.shake
Don't worry, it's amazing how you recalled the rules w/o actually having them handy. ST is a hell of game, with the right players, and still one of my all-time faves. The rules are ... not optimal, that's for sure.

Especially concerning the Lido Courtesan, had/have a house rule (which usually I don't like) that the other player must roll 3 or 4 times in order to get there first, otherwise the LC is faster ... something like that, gotta look it up.
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lucyfer wrote:
jumbit wrote:
Radulla wrote:
jumbit wrote:
How does a factory get serviced? The rules don't say. If a warehouse is serviced then the factory is as well?

Ooooh... nonononononono. A factory is serviced through cooperation with ship owners. Dealmaking. Enticements. Every manner of extortion you can think of. Make "co-operation" the only option.
How, exactly? There's no "serviced" side to the counters.

We played that if the warehouse was serviced then the factory was as well, but I couldn't find anything about it.
First, the answer that "A factory is serviced through cooperation ..." is dead wrong.

Please have a look at "Trading Pyramids" on page 5 of the rules.
You need to understand a "Trading Pyramid".

A Warehouse Pyramid consists of 2 Trading posts plus 1 warehouse. If the warehouse is serviced, it's a serviced Warehouse Pyramid, if not it's an unserviced Warehouse Pyramid.

A Factory Pyramid consists of 2 Trading posts plus 1 warehouse plus 1 factory. If the warehouse is serviced, it's a serviced Factory Pyramid, if not it's an unserviced Factory Pyramid.
So servicing a warehouse simultaneously services both warehouse and factory. Wow, that's even more valuable. $80,000 difference between serviced and unserviced.
Quote:
Haven't looked through all other answers given ... some may be right, some may be wrong (no offense meant).
Please do if you get the chance. modest
Quote:
Seen that you asked about the red border lines - they mark the British Zone, the blue ones mark the French zone. See page 1 of the rules, 1.6 Map.
I see it now. Do these have any effect on gameplay?
Quote:
Especially concerning the Lido Courtesan, had/have a house rule (which usually I don't like) that the other player must roll 3 or 4 times in order to get there first, otherwise the LC is faster ... something like that, gotta look it up.
Reading through her rules, she "is controlled by the owner of the Lido Nightclub." She acts during the Movement Segment of any Seasonal Turn. Extrapolating from here, she would move as a second piece during her controller's turn. She would naturally move to the Bund district where the North China Daily Mail is, and start rolling for movement like a player's piece. Since she has nothing else to do, she'll just roll every turn and if the opposing player wishes, he may try to beat her there. When she rolls the 3-4 to get there, the designated penalty takes effect (player she targeted loses half of cash in hand).
 
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lucyfer wrote:
Radulla wrote:
lucyfer wrote:

First, the answer that "A factory is serviced through cooperation ..." is dead wrong.
Thank you for the correction; my recollection was not as strong as I thought.shake
Don't worry, it's amazing how you recalled the rules w/o actually having them handy. ST is a hell of game, with the right players, and still one of my all-time faves. The rules are ... not optimal, that's for sure.

Especially concerning the Lido Courtesan, had/have a house rule (which usually I don't like) that the other player must roll 3 or 4 times in order to get there first, otherwise the LC is faster ... something like that, gotta look it up.
Sorry, I was telling some rubbish here - not roll 3 or 4 times, should be roll a 3 or a 4 in order to get there.
This leaves room for other house rules, of course. Both players may roll simultaneously, but then what if both roll a 3 or 4 at the same time?
Or the LC may roll first, then the blackmailed player, then the LC again etc.
We played it that the LC is getting to the NCDM automatically, and the blackmailed player has one try to roll a 3 or 4 in order to avoid her getting there.
 
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"Reading through her rules, she "is controlled by the owner of the Lido Nightclub." She acts during the Movement Segment of any Seasonal Turn. Extrapolating from here, she would move as a second piece during her controller's turn. She would naturally move to the Bund district where the North China Daily Mail is, and start rolling for movement like a player's piece. Since she has nothing else to do, she'll just roll every turn and if the opposing player wishes, he may try to beat her there. When she rolls the 3-4 to get there, the designated penalty takes effect (player she targeted loses half of cash in hand)."

Yes, you may play it like that, or some other way - please see my posts above.

I'll try to go through the other issues as well, though the answers generally seem to be quite decent. Please allow a few days.

The districts have a meaning concerning the use of Police, Monks, Thugs and Muggers - these can be used in the International settlement (British and French Zone) only.
 
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lucyfer wrote:
Don't worry, it's amazing how you recalled the rules w/o actually having them handy. ST is a hell of game, with the right players, and still one of my all-time faves. The rules are ... not optimal, that's for sure.

Especially concerning the Lido Courtesan, had/have a house rule (which usually I don't like) that the other player must roll 3 or 4 times in order to get there first, otherwise the LC is faster ... something like that, gotta look it up.
I've seen several house rules (and variants of them) mentioned... as a veteran of the game (it seems), could you make a compilation of the ones you'd recommend?
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Actually got a house rule for the Lido Courtesan only, but have compiled a short rule I could send you - it helps if you are somewhat familiar with the rules proper.
Could come back with that, and answers to any questions you may have, sometime next week - I'm off to LeiriaCon now.

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lucyfer wrote:
Actually got a house rule for the Lido Courtesan only, but have compiled a short rule I could send you - it helps if you are somewhat familiar with the rules proper.
Could come back with that, and answers to any questions you may have, sometime next week - I'm off to LeiriaCon now.
Please do.
Have fun!
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I'll have another game of Shanghai Trader soon, did the rules lists ever get found?
 
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jumbit wrote:
I'll have another game of Shanghai Trader soon, did the rules lists ever get found?
Sorry for being late with this answer, been too busy with other rules. Don't know which "lists" you refer to.

However, I tried to compile a little FAQ concerning those points that had not been answered so far, or not completely. Here we go:

Q: But the Opium Den in Old Chinatown says if you voluntarily go there, you can hire the courtesan. Rules section 7.6 says you pay the fine of $40,000 and more freely next turn.
A: No, you can hire the courtesan(s) at the Brothels only. If you go to the Opium Den voluntarily, you may pay the fine and move freely in your next turn - or you do not pay and can move in this, respectively subsequent turns, only by rolling a 1 - 3.

Q: What are the district lines for?
A: The red and blue lines are the districts of the International Settlement. Old Chinatown has a red boundary as well, but does not belong to the International Settlement. Each time you move, you have to show/name the district you want to move to, then roll a die to see where you actually land. If you roll a “6” when moving out of the International Settlement or Chinatown, you are “shanghaied” (kidnapped) and roll again to see where to you are shanghaied exactly. If you roll a “6” when moving to Old Chinatown voluntarily, you are kind of shanghaied, see above.


Q: What happens when you're in the International Settlement and roll a 6 for your move and move to the racket instead of the trading posts? Nothing?
A: If that racket is owned by a player, you have to pay $5000 to that player, unless agreed otherwise. If it has no owner yet, you may buy control of it, by buying a racketeer. This requires that you own both Trading Posts in that district, except for the Shanghai Club.

Q: During which phase do the monks collect their payments?
A: During each seasonal turn, in the event phase.

Hope this helps, if you've got any more questions please post them here. I should be able to respond sooner than I did this time.

In fact, it's all in the rules, at some place or another - except for the Lido Courtesan, see house rules above.
Amazing game, poorly written rules. Enjoy! And be mean

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How are the Americans special?

Where's it say the French/British can only use the French club/Police? I can't find it in the rules.

Racketeers removed from play - does this mean you lose your title deed? And someone else can purchase it? Or does it just stop functioning until you hire a single coolie?

Collusion phase: what's the point of this? Are agreements binding? If not, why not just make deals at any point during the year? Police, monks, and minder must be deployed at this time but that's about it. And if you can break any agreement at any time, I really don't get the collusion phase.

Thanks for all the answers, I really appreciate it. We got this to the table again last night with 5 players. They liked it but it was a first time play so nobody knew what they were doing. Several of them ran out of money and had nothing to do on turn after turn until the year changed. Loaning was rampant.

One player got stuck in his starting district needing to roll a 1-3 to get his second coolie and get his first racket. He rolled high again and again. Even with the house rule that lets you pay $10,000 to raise or lower a die roll by 1. I'm thinking of a new house rule that lets you go to a second coolie automatically at the end of the year if you can't roll it, but not sure of the wording.

The boys liked it, and we'll play again soon.
 
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jumbit wrote:
How are the Americans special?

Where's it say the French/British can only use the French club/Police? I can't find it in the rules.

Racketeers removed from play - does this mean you lose your title deed? And someone else can purchase it? Or does it just stop functioning until you hire a single coolie?

Collusion phase: what's the point of this? Are agreements binding? If not, why not just make deals at any point during the year? Police, monks, and minder must be deployed at this time but that's about it. And if you can break any agreement at any time, I really don't get the collusion phase.

Thanks for all the answers, I really appreciate it. We got this to the table again last night with 5 players. They liked it but it was a first time play so nobody knew what they were doing. Several of them ran out of money and had nothing to do on turn after turn until the year changed. Loaning was rampant.

One player got stuck in his starting district needing to roll a 1-3 to get his second coolie and get his first racket. He rolled high again and again. Even with the house rule that lets you pay $10,000 to raise or lower a die roll by 1. I'm thinking of a new house rule that lets you go to a second coolie automatically at the end of the year if you can't roll it, but not sure of the wording.

The boys liked it, and we'll play again soon.
In the basic game the Americans have no special feature, as have none of the other nations. This is different in the Advanced Game, see rules 11.4

It is said nowhere that only the French or British can use any of the contractors. Anybody can use them, depending on what racket you own. Or you may hire them from the owner (collusion phase). There are restrictions for the deployment of Police and Monks, see page 4 of the rules.

You keep control of a racket as long as you control at least one Trading Post in that district. If you lose that one, you lose the racket and control of any associated contractors. The racket can be bought again by anybody who controls both TPs in that district, as usual. EXCEPTION: Once acquired, you never lose control of the Shanghai Club.

During the collusion phase you may first negotiate secretly or publicly almost everything you want, like threaten someone, or bribe them etc. - it is not binding except for any immediate deals. For example, you may ask money to not deploy Police or Monks in certain disttricts, if you own the Shanghai club respectively the Bubbling Well Road Monastery.
Then you actually deploy these contractors (if you own ... see above), and finally you may exchange/trade TPs, warehouses, factories or rackets. This can be done in the third collusion step only. All this is explained quite well on page 2 under 2.3 How to play.

There is no district where you have to roll 1 - 3 for your second coolie. In all districts you get one coolie for 1 - 2, and the other one for 3 - 5. So I guess you played something wrong ...
If you need 1 - 2 for your second coolie and don't get it, you may ask another player and make some deal with them (collusion phase). Getting your second coolie automatically is not a good idea, I think, but the house rule of changing the die value by 1 for $10.000 sounds quite interesting - but only in this case, not to avoid being shanghaied, that would spoil the game.

 
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lucyfer wrote:
You keep control of a racket as long as you control at least one Trading Post in that district. If you lose that one, you lose the racket and control of any associated contractors. The racket can be bought again by anybody who controls both TPs in that district, as usual. EXCEPTION: Once acquired, you never lose control of the Shanghai Club.
Wow, so if someone knocks off both your coolies, your property deed goes back to the bank and anyone can buy it? That changes things.

Quote:
During the collusion phase you may first negotiate secretly or publicly almost everything you want, like threaten someone, or bribe them etc. - it is not binding except for any immediate deals.
OK well except for the immediate deals, it seems kind of pointless when deals can be made any time during the game. Anyway, moving on...

Quote:
There is no district where you have to roll 1 - 3 for your second coolie. In all districts you get one coolie for 1 - 2, and the other one for 3 - 5. So I guess you played something wrong ...
This is with the house rule that 10k can add or subtract one to any die roll. Except of course the 6 that sends you to Old Chinatown, and the subsequent roll there. Playing without this rule is just too frustrating, rolling to see where you go is a poor mechanic. It's the worst part of the game, but it's unavoidable the way it's set up.
Quote:
If you need 1 - 2 for your second coolie and don't get it, you may ask another player and make some deal with them (collusion phase).
Another player can't recruit your coolie for you?
 
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jumbit wrote:
lucyfer wrote:
You keep control of a racket as long as you control at least one Trading Post in that district. If you lose that one, you lose the racket and control of any associated contractors. The racket can be bought again by anybody who controls both TPs in that district, as usual. EXCEPTION: Once acquired, you never lose control of the Shanghai Club.
Wow, so if someone knocks off both your coolies, your property deed goes back to the bank and anyone can buy it? That changes things.
Yes, that's the way it is.


Quote:
During the collusion phase you may first negotiate secretly or publicly almost everything you want, like threaten someone, or bribe them etc. - it is not binding except for any immediate deals.
OK well except for the immediate deals, it seems kind of pointless when deals can be made any time during the game. Anyway, moving on...
Well, generally deals are made during the collusion phase, not at other points. You may do so as a house rule, however private deals are definitely and only allowed during the collusion phase.
What I meant about immediate deals is that you have to pay another player if you agreed on something they do immediately. If they do what was agreed, you must pay them (binding). But if you promise to do this or that later during the round, it is not binding.

Quote:
There is no district where you have to roll 1 - 3 for your second coolie. In all districts you get one coolie for 1 - 2, and the other one for 3 - 5. So I guess you played something wrong ...
This is with the house rule that 10k can add or subtract one to any die roll. Except of course the 6 that sends you to Old Chinatown, and the subsequent roll there. Playing without this rule is just too frustrating, rolling to see where you go is a poor mechanic. It's the worst part of the game, but it's unavoidable the way it's set up.
I rather think this is one of the core points of the game - it is supposed to be a chaotic, haphazard experience, where you may try to plan your moves, but things can go deadly wrong. Like you may have the most money in your Swiss bank account but get shot at the airfield, just by a die roll. If you don't like these bad accidents, you shouldn't play Shanghai Trader. Being mean and unpredictable, hardly making it possible to plan things exactly is the nature of the game!

Quote:
If you need 1 - 2 for your second coolie and don't get it, you may ask another player and make some deal with them (collusion phase).
Another player can't recruit your coolie for you?
Well, you can make almost any deal you want during the collusion phase, like "If you go there successfully during your next turn and give that coolie to me, I'll pay you $10.000 ...", or whatever you want.
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Do you know about the rules in the files section? https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/7717/shanghai-traderp...

They're different than the printed rules. Do they have the blessing of the designer, or did someone just come up with them?
 
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jumbit wrote:
Do you know about the rules in the files section? https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/7717/shanghai-traderp...

They're different than the printed rules. Do they have the blessing of the designer, or did someone just come up with them?
These are exactly the same rules as provided with the game originally, however it seems to be a slightly different font, so just in parts it looks slightly different, but the content is exactly the same.
Please see bottom line of last page "Scanned, formatted and proofed by Rob Hamilton (Debate) for www.boardgamegeek.com, November 2004. angorafish@hotmail.com"
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Oh, so no corrections or errata? OK, won't bother printing them out then.

Thanks for all your help. We're playing again Monday night and I'll be ready with all the new answers.
 
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jumbit wrote:
Oh, so no corrections or errata? OK, won't bother printing them out then.

Thanks for all your help. We're playing again Monday night and I'll be ready with all the new answers.
No changes at all - not even for the much disputed Lido Courtesan.

Enjoy your next game - it should be really messy
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