How to know when you can use some passive abilities : Tristram Spirit familiar | Middara: Unintentional Malum – Act 1

France
le pré saint gervais

A rule question for Succubus.
I am reading the rulebook now and something i am not sure i understand.
The passive Ability of the Tristram Spirit familiar say :
* : + 2 Physical dammage
How do i know on wich roll i can use it?

1° i guess physical attack from weapon
2° but also on spell like Gore Shot (wich does magical dmg)?
3° if the spell already does physical damage (i am not sure it exists but something like a hail of stone can do physical dmg i guess?)?
4° if the spell don't do dmg like a spell or spell like ability wich push or paralyse your opponent

Maybe it is me but i don't see how i can know that.

Thanks

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Richard Mitchell

United States
Snyder
New York

1. Yes, when you are making a an attack with a weapon the passive "*" from the familiar will grant +2 damage for EACH * rolled on the dice, assuming you've overcome the def of the target.

2. Gore shot , since it is a spell, you use "Force" of the spell, which will likely be 6+ your Casting die, symbols are not calculated here unless they are "books" from the empower die - which is an optional cost as usual. Gore shot does magic damage not physical, so the benefit from the familiar isn't a factor in this case. Your spell FORCE is being compared to the CONVICTION check of the target.

3. I do not know if there are spells that do physical damage in the game since I haven't got the game yet, but it seems they deal "magical" damage in all the examples given thus far ....

4. If the spell has some effect like push etc, but doesn't deal a magical damage, it will still not be boosted by the "physical" damage benefit from the familiar ... since its magic damage for the spell.

Note spell-like abilities, things with a Follow-up (FU) are also having "force" rolls, so likely they do magical damage or have some status effect. Physical damage does not augment them.

Hope this helps.

Last edited Fri Feb 8, 2019 5:20 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2019 5:14 pm
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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

Since there is already ways to add magical dmg AND physical dmg to an attack from symbols i am really not sure about your 2, 3 4.

You can benefit from +2 magical dmg on a physical attack from items i think i saw that (but i may be wrong) i don't see in the rulebook why the opposite would not be possible.

The fact that it uses force vs conviction does not prevent you from using symbola this is why you can choose to empower your spells.

If someone from Succubus could confirm either way.

Thanks

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Richard Mitchell

United States
Snyder
New York

Endevor wrote:

The fact that it uses force vs conviction does not prevent you from using symbola this is why you can choose to empower your spells.

Thanks

This is the only instance of the symbols helping out on a spell attack - using the empower die ( books add to your Force result).... which is why the star adding physical doesn't contribute ... I don't know how else to say it to you. Yes there are weapons (items) that add damage etc to magic attacks based on symbols rolled .. for instance the Staff - books add Magic damage. This is an item which augments your damage with magic damage. The books added would not help a physical attack and vise versa. Look at the examples in the rulebook - seem very clear, the rulebook is outstanding.

The wording in the rulebook is quite specific for damage : either physical or magical ... or if there is simply just "damage" listed it applies to all types. Thats written in the book. So a spell like gore shot when overcoming an opponents conviction will deal 2 Magic damage, this is not boosted by things that add physical damage. As part of that SPELL you may take irreducible damage to yourself to add another magic damage.

Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2019 3:34 pm (Total Number of Edits: 3)
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2019 6:32 pm
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Brian Torrens

(Brian T)

Canada
Toronto
Ontario

Good question.

On page 40, it lists the damage types and at the bottom it says "Important: Any time an Ability references "Damage" it is referencing any Damage type.

This sort of suggests that if you have a bonus that offers +X Physical Damage or +X Magic Damage, it would only apply to an attack that does that type of damage. Where if you have an ability that says +X Damage, it would affect all types.

On page 28 in the list of "Tags", +(X) PHYSICAL DMG: The amount of additional Physical Damage this Attack will Gain during the Determine Damage step of an Attack.

If it were possible to add a Physical damage bonus to a spell that causes Magic damage, this then would ask the question, is the attack now both Magic and Physical? It would be an important point if you are faced with an opponent that has Physical resistance (half damage), or immunity to Physical damage.

I personally am leaning towards the ruling that if you have a Physical damage bonus, it only applies to an attack that causes Physical damage. So in regards to the Gore Shot spell, the familiar's bonus would not apply. I am interested however on the official ruling form Succubus as this could really go either way

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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

Ok this would mean there is no way to have some kind of flaming weapon that could add magical dmg to a physical attack.

For a 2 types attack it would be simple, reduce the physical part with the armor value and not the magical part.

You both are probably right but what you quote does not say clearly you can only add physical to physical and the same for magic (unless i missed one rule).

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Brian Torrens

(Brian T)

Canada
Toronto
Ontario

Endevor wrote:

Ok this would mean there is no way to have some kind of flaming weapon that could add magical dmg to a physical attack.

For a 2 types attack it would be simple, reduce the physical part with the armor value and not the magical part.

You both are probably right but what you quote does not say clearly you can only add physical to physical and the same for magic (unless i missed one rule).

You are correct. The way the rules are worded in the rulebook, it could go either way. I see your point re: flaming sword with physical and magical damage. Thematically, it would seem that the familiar is adding +2 Physical damage via it's own personal attack, so even though you are casting a spell (magic damage), the familiar still bonks the enemy on the head for 2 extra Physical.

I think you would just have to watch out for resistance (half damage) which is where my question comes in. If you add Physical damage to Magic damage, is the attack treated as both? Does the resistance only apply to the part that is Physical damage? So in this case, if you gained this bonus while attacking an enemy that has Physical resistance, do you half the bonus (2 points reduced to 1), or is the entire attack affected (spell damage plus the 2 Physical then divided in half).

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Richard Mitchell

United States
Snyder
New York

Looking back now in more detail, the Familiar Tristram spirit States its passive as :

"*" +2 physical damage .... and it does NOT state for "your attacks" which I guess could very well mean at any time your roll produces a star "*" like when casting a spell and rolling your force roll .... Endevor I think you may be right here ... I suppose it comes down to whether or not symbols are activated in spell force rolls for bonuses (which was my point above).
ATTACKS (melee //ranged) benefit from rolled symbols, however spell casting, which is not an attack action its simply another type of action seems only to benefit from "book symbols" when rolling the empower die. There is a good example of this on page 52. In that example a white 7 is rolled (star, 2 shields and 1 book) and those symbols do nothing. Maybe the familiar over rides this ie Now that star does +2 physical ...

Oh man I can't wait to start playing this game.

Last edited Fri Feb 8, 2019 9:20 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2019 8:49 pm
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Brian Torrens

(Brian T)

Canada
Toronto
Ontario

realfist wrote:

Oh man I can't wait to start playing this game.

I think a lot of us are anxious to play! As it would appear we are already reviewing the rulebook in anticipation...

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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

It would be best to have an official answer on this.
1° this particular case
2° the rule in general can you add physical to a spell and can you add magical to a physical attack

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Alex Hansen

United States
Utah

Hey, sorry for the delay. We will try to be more aware of BGG questions.

The *: + 2 PHYSICAL DMG is called a Symbol Ability and,unless otherwise stated, can only be used on an Attack Roll, not on Spell rolls. So I hope that answers that questions.

Tristram Spirit functions just like the Symbol Abilities on the bottom of Item cards. Shields/Books/Bursts for DMG , etc.

So in the case of Tristram Spirit, it would be more optimal on an Adventurer that plans on doing damage with their weapons as opposed to spells.

Spell rolls are completely different than Attack Rolls. Both with have different things they can do but 99% of the time, when you see a symbol condition (shield,book,burst) it will only be usable on an Attack Roll.

Check pg. 55 of the Rulebook here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqi4vstaoumsp62/Middara-Rulebook-V...

It's small but it's under Symbol Abilities.

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Alex Hansen

United States
Utah

1. You won't be able to ever add PHYSICAL DMG to a Spell with these Symbols unless there is a Spell that functions this way. (We haven't made one...yet).

2. You actually can add MAGIC DMG to Attacks, but only while making an Attack using Weapons with the SPELLCRAFT TAG like Wand, Tome, and Magic Talisman.

These Weapons will have Symbol Abilities just like any other Weapon, but instead of adding PHYSICAL DMG, they add MAGIC DMG. This is useful for overcoming an opponent's armor.

Typically, your traditional weapons like swords, axes, hammers, maces, etc, with only add DMG with Shields and Bursts. Magic Weapons with the SPELLCRAFT TAG will typically use Books to add MAGIC DMG.

There's a picture of the Wand on page 27 of the Rulebook if you want to see.

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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

OK thanks.

Bur i would have 100% used the +1 Magical damage on the bottom of the Magic Tome item on spells like Gore Shot. There is a spellcraft keyword on this item but i can't find it in the rulebook.

This mean you can hit with the book in melee doing physical damage and add +1 magical damage with 2 books symbols?

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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

You answered my question thanks.

EDIT : maybe i will be the only one confused but you should add it to the faq

Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2019 2:55 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2019 2:53 pm
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Richard Mitchell

United States
Snyder
New York

Endevor I think once you get the game and begin to play it will be quite clear to you. The rulebook is very well compiled and written.

Attack action is different from spells.

Only attack action will benefit from symbol abilities (like the *).

Empowering a spell ( Black die) will let you add some books for additional possible damage ... this is the one instance of symbols adding in to the Spell effects.

When making an attack with a weapon having "Spellcraft" keyword, the symbol abilities add Magic damage typically, so if you do hit, but the opponent is heavily armored you can still deal some damage as the magic portion will bypass the armor.

note as well "Spellcraft" is not listed among the keyword list in the rulebook.

Maybe "Spellcraft" should be added to the FAQ: Attacks with a weapon having spell craft can possibly add magic damage to the attack using symbol abilities, as per item description.

Thanks for chiming in Alex!

Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2019 4:57 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2019 3:09 pm
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Endevor Rovedne

France
le pré saint gervais

DO you realise the final ruling is really different from what you were saying since you told me you could use the spellcraft item to improve you spells?
So no i i had played with the rule as written i don't think it would have been clearer. And the page 55 is about comabttant card there is no way i could have deduced that from this page.

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Richard Mitchell

United States
Snyder
New York

Is it? Well you go ahead and think that. Im not sure why you are continuing to argue the point. In my first response to you I said symbols don't effect spells, only attacks.... I also said weapons like the staff can add magic damage rather than physical. But it is still an ATTACK not a spell.

Ill stop responding to your questions, you can remain confused. Good luck.

Edit it was my second response, but said as much in the first as well ....

You may want to read the box labeled IMPORTANT on page 30 of the rules. Looks like you did NOT interpret the rules as written.

Last edited Sat Feb 9, 2019 3:56 pm (Total Number of Edits: 3)
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2019 3:38 pm
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Alex Hansen

United States
Utah

I can totally see how that's confusing, but yes, you could only get that MAGIC DMG bonus with the Tome if you went up and smacked a baddie with it.

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Alex Hansen