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Subject: Kroghan the Dreadlord, what am I missing? rss

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Timo R
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We wrapped up our first campaign play-through (that is, without retail VL yet - come on Ares, hurry up!) last weekend and are about to start over again. This time with a chaotic party and all new heroes (used lawful base game five for the first run).

While pondering my options, I keep wondering about Kroghan the Dreadlord. This guys seems like to be made with a built-in handicap, I fail to see other explanations for why he is gimped in so many areas at once.

Ok, I get it. He has a useful hero ability (that only helps early game, though), tons of HP and he very early acquires 2 combat activities. There are also some neat powers. BUT the cost is huge - he has lowest inventory capacity, lowest movement, poor progression in powers AND action activities. When I compare this package to most other heroes, I wonder if they went over the top with balancing him - to compensate for what? The combat activities? There are others heroes that have this nice trait - but they are not crippled in virtually every other aspect.

Really looking for some feedback from people who actually played Dreadlord and can compare to other heroes. It really seems like it can become very frustrating to play that guy - especially with 5 players. What am I missing?
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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I think I did a write up of him in the strategy thread, you can look over there for some info.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2085721/kroghan-barbarian-d...


Though I don't think I addressed that particular point, so I'll this here:


Dreadlord is actually very powerful.
2 Combat attacks is huge in this game. Especially with a powerful weapon.
It also combos with (Campaign Spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Vampire\Werewolf forms if you obtain them


In addition, while you don't get many actions, notice that the dreadlord powers are almost all free or passive. So you don't need actions to trigger them.

My guess is that they didn't want him to throw stuff and focus more on the front line.

Otherwise, they could have just given him regular action cost powers and more actions.


The low inventory space is also reasonable considering the Vampiric Aura power. You don't really need to hold up more healing items with so much regeneration.

The speed is a bit annoying, but you're a front liner so you're close to the action anyway.
 
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Vasilis
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Callidus wrote:
We wrapped up our first campaign play-through (that is, without retail VL yet - come on Ares, hurry up!) last weekend and are about to start over again. This time with a chaotic party and all new heroes (used lawful base game five for the first run).

While pondering my options, I keep wondering about Kroghan the Dreadlord. This guys seems like to be made with a built-in handicap, I fail to see other explanations for why he is gimped in so many areas at once.

Ok, I get it. He has a useful hero ability (that only helps early game, though), tons of HP and he very early acquires 2 combat activities. There are also some neat powers. BUT the cost is huge - he has lowest inventory capacity, lowest movement, poor progression in powers AND action activities. When I compare this package to most other heroes, I wonder if they went over the top with balancing him - to compensate for what? The combat activities? There are others heroes that have this nice trait - but they are not crippled in virtually every other aspect.

Really looking for some feedback from people who actually played Dreadlord and can compare to other heroes. It really seems like it can become very frustrating to play that guy - especially with 5 players. What am I missing?

Dreadlord was one of those cards that got replaced after the KS because it was completely broken.
The new Dreadlord version is more balanced. Double attack is EXTREMELY powerful.
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Timo R
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Thanks guys for the feedback.

@GrandMasterFox: Actually, I have been reading all your threads in the strategy section. These are a great resource and thank you for investing the time!

I am good with the points you make around action activities. I as well agree, that dual combat activities are extremely powerful. Compared to being able to occasionally perform an extra attack, which is either much weaker or has a cooldown, a second combat activity almost brings another character to the board without adding another enemy turn to compensate.

But still, why are other characters that get 2 combat activities punished less for it than the Dreadlord? E.g. our Auriel could pull-off multiple AoE attacks each round, but she still was able use her legs, had powers to easily overcompensate her low HP and generally felt not as handicapped than the Dreadlord appears to be on paper. She also had access to the campaign spoiler combo you mentioned, which turned out to be rather dull because of all the enemy types you mostly encounter and their built-in immunity to a certain condition you rely on for this combo to be really fun ;-)
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Auriel either uses a power for a combat activity with a cool down, or she uses an M weapon which isn't that strong.

Dreadlord has 2 attacks with a powerful weapon every round.
 
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Timo R
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Guess what happened, someone selected chaotic Kroghan and the lucky dog pulled the Athlete background fixing 2 weaknesses at the cost of 1 lousy HP. What were they thinking? Out of 5 people on the table, only one refused to see why that might become a problem. Seems like we are up for some steamrolling again
 
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Vasilis
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Callidus wrote:
Guess what happened, someone selected chaotic Kroghan and the lucky dog pulled the Athlete background fixing 2 weaknesses at the cost of 1 lousy HP. What were they thinking? Out of 5 people on the table, only one refused to see why that might become a problem. Seems like we are up for some steamrolling again

This exact situation happened during our 2nd campaign playthrough. I immediately veto'd it because it would make the character really OP and mess up the campaign.

In general, I don't like the idea of random character backgrounds. They can make or break a character even before the game starts and they aren't temporary, they are permanent. I just don't use them.
 
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Timo R
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Bowmangr wrote:
This exact situation happened during our 2nd campaign playthrough. I immediately veto'd it because it would make the character really OP and mess up the campaign.

In general, I don't like the idea of random character backgrounds. They can make or break a character even before the game starts and they aren't temporary, they are permanent. I just don't use them.

We did the same during our first campaign, as we had our suspicions and before actually having some experience helping us to extrapolate what the potential effects could be, we just decided to go without backgrounds.

This time around, we expected these to create some interesting twist we have to deal with and accepted the low probability, that Dreadlord would meet Athlete. Everyone agreeing, that this would be too much. However, once the backgrounds were assigned, someone in particular had suddenly a very narrow view on things and did not want to discuss about redrawing anything ... Unexpected, but sometimes even people you think you know very well can suddenly behave very strangely. Let's see, if there's some guilty conscience developing during the next few days or if we have to enter some heated debate when we meet again next weekend to fix this -_-
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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It's interesting because when Wave 1 went out, the consensus was that background talents were usually more harm than good and weren't worth it.

I know that wave 2 got some updates for it, but I haven't seen anyone mentioned them and haven't given them much look.

I don't even pull them out.
Maybe it is time to overview them.
 
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Timo R
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Looking at the retail BG talents, 5 out of 10 can be considered a handicap for most heroes or have no significant effect. Of the remaining ones, 4 can be beneficial or an acceptable trade for some characters. It's just Athlete that stands out by this far. I am even tempted to claim that there is almost no hero who wouldn't want to trade a single permanent HP for +1 action AND +1 move.

Probably not even making it the exact inverse of the other talent which trades 1 action and move for +3 HP would be enough. Rather SR HP, or 3 HP per Act.
 
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