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Subject: Root versus Vast... rss

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Gordon Spaeth
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With no prompting from me regarding my opinion, please:

Root or Vast? Which one do you prefer and why? Thank you...
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Root. Root is an asymmetric game, where each faction speaks the same language, but says different things. Everyone is built of the same basic actions, remixed differently into turn orders that depend on different engines. Vast is a neat thought experiment, but it’s a bear to learn because each faction operates completely and utterly differently, interacting at only a few mechanical points. It will take many games of Vast to understand what the heck each faction is doing, and learning each is like learning a whole new game.
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Derek Bowen
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GamesMobile wrote:
With no prompting from me regarding my opinion, please:

Root or Vast? Which one do you prefer and why? Thank you...
Root and a really enjoy vast. I think root plays better at different player counts and does a better job of defining the rules but I just have more fun with all the factions.
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BG.EXE
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I dramatically prefer Root to Vast. I enjoyed Vast, but the roles are so completely different that unless you can get the same 4~ish people together, frequently, and focus on playing just Vast, then your time with it will mostly be teaching people. Possibly confused, frustrated people.

Root bases everything on a common core with its cards and its extremely concise set of key terms. The cards, tokens, buildings, etc. are used differently but still similarly for each faction, and the definition for every single thing is clearly and universally defined. It makes it much easier to teach. "Here is what the cards look like, what they do, what their symbols mean and how they're used in general. Here is what the spots on the map mean. Here's how the cards relate to the map. This is a token, this is a building." Then you can teach everyone what makes their faction special and, more or less, you're off.

It's a bit more detailed than that obviously, but it's certainly easier than teaching essentially 4 completely different games to people at the same time.
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Stephen Jacobsen
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I respect the design of Vast more than I have enjoyed playing it.
I both respect the design of Root and really enjoy playing it.

Many of the reasons have been well-iterated above.

Another reason I prefer Root to Vast is that I am a big COIN fan and wargames in general. This provides some of the COIN/wargame flavor with a quicker playing time and less overhead, in a skin that's easy to convince Eurogamers to get on board with. It also has much better player count scaling than a lot of other COIN/wargames, so it's also easier to table for that reason as well. In most COINs you want the maximum player count listed to get the best experience. With Root, it seems to scale really well from 3-5.
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Neil Helmer
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SJacobsen159 wrote:
I respect the design of Vast more than I have enjoyed playing it.
I both respect the design of Root and really enjoy playing it.

Many of the reasons have been well-iterated above.

Another reason I prefer Root to Vast is that I am a big COIN fan and wargames in general. This provides some of the COIN/wargame flavor with a quicker playing time and less overhead, in a skin that's easy to convince Eurogamers to get on board with. It also has much better player count scaling than a lot of other COIN/wargames, so it's also easier to table for that reason as well. In most COINs you want the maximum player count listed to get the best experience. With Root, it seems to scale really well from 3-5.
I couldn’t have said it better than this also a huge COIN fan
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Gordon Spaeth
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Thanks for all the replies. I’ve only played Root twice so far and have been sort of underwhelmed. Everyone else I’ve played with has disliked or hated it. I think part of it is that my copy is either first or second edition and has what I’m finding are the crazily ambiguous rules that I first encountered in Vast. Having looked up the 3rd edition rules for Root this morning, I’m pleased that many of my complaints have been addressed. However, it turns out that I was right not to buy Root as my one GenCon game after getting burned by the word hash of ridiculousness that was the Vast rules. Note to myself and possibly others: DON’T BUY A FIRST EDITION OF LEDER GAMES. Take a breath. Look at the pretty pieces. Then wait for the rules to get corrected in the 3rd or 4th edition...

Having ranted about the rules editing at Leder, I will say I think I prefer Vast. I like most of the features that you all listed as negatives. However, after reading what you all have written, I can appreciate the COIN feel of Root and will certainly play again. Just might not keep my copy...
 
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Eira Følling
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Root's rulebook is the clearest I have seen. There really are no abiguities if you actually read the rules.

Literally every rules question in this forum can be answered by a direct quote from the rulebook.
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BG.EXE
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That’s my experience as well. I’ve never seen a question that couldn’t be answered concisely with a page and paragraph quote from the rules. Are you trying to interpret the rules at all? Because they should be taken literally and precisely, and never used to “assume” things the rules don’t say.
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Gordon Spaeth
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Like I said, I think I have a first edition copy of the rules. But, with those, I had to INTUITE that when you remove a building, that it goes back onto the player board. The only hint I got was that something in the vagabond rules mentions putting something “back in the box”. Likewise, I believe (game is in Dallas and I’m in Omaha today) I read something about movement being the “placement” of a warrior. That makes the keep token redundant. I swear to you, the rulebooks I have are completely different from the 3rd edition rules I perused this morning...

So you can stop with the condescending tone...

And, yes, it is...

EDIT: I may have the second edition rules, because the big book has rules for the expansion as well...
 
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Gordon Spaeth
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Also, if the rules are so crystal clear, why is there a 3rd edition of them out in barely 3 years..?
 
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Eira Følling
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GamesMobile wrote:
Like I said, I think I have a first edition copy of the rules. But, with those, I had to INTUITE that when you remove a building, that it goes back onto the player board. The only hint I got was that something in the vagabond rules mentions putting something “back in the box”.
You need to read 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 again.
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Gordon Spaeth
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You need to read the part where I mentioned the game is in Dallas and I'm in Omaha right now. Not helpful...
 
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Eira Følling
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GamesMobile wrote:
Also, if the rules are so crystal clear, why is there a 3rd edition of them out in barely 3 years..?
Because of actual rule changes, not clarifications.

3 years?
 
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Eira Følling
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GamesMobile wrote:
You need to read the part where I mentioned the game is in Dallas and I'm in Omaha right now. Not helpful...
The rulebook is online.

Even the first print version.

EDIT: Also the 3rd print version.
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Gordon Spaeth
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I'm on my ancient phone. It's taken me a while to find the 1E rules and actually read them on it. The two sections you referenced are there. My apologies to Your Expertise if I'm not gamerly enough and did something like look in the battle section of the rules to see what happens when a building is removed (which seems to only happen in battle) to see that it DOESN'T mention that you put the token back on the track. Is it unreasonable for me to expect that an important game mechanic, in a game that has a relatively high complexity, is repeated in more than one location in the rules, particularly in relevant sections? This was the same issue I had with Vast, but I just find it a cooler game. When you have to stop game play on every turn to dig through the rules because there's an assumption made that you should already have them committed to memory, that becomes frustrating for less experienced players. And I'm not a rules slouch. I love Virgin Queen. It was easier for me to pick up those rules on the first two plays than Root because they were better organized...
 
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Gordon Spaeth
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bassofthe wrote:
GamesMobile wrote:
Also, if the rules are so crystal clear, why is there a 3rd edition of them out in barely 3 years..?
Because of actual rule changes, not clarifications.

3 years?
So my copy of Root is already out of date and I've only had it for 2 weeks..?

I guess that's okay since the player boards started to warp the minute I took them out of the shrink wrap...
 
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Eira Følling
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GamesMobile wrote:
I'm on my ancient phone. It's taken me a while to find the 1E rules and actually read them on it.
The link is right there in my previous post. Wouldn't be that hard to find if you actually bothered to read.

GamesMobile wrote:
When you have to stop game play on every turn to dig through the rules because there's an assumption made that you should already have them committed to memory, that becomes frustrating for less experienced players.
The only rules you are expected to remember are movement, rule, battle and buildings/tokens. Everything else is written on the faction boards.
 
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Patrick Leder
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The changes to the game were some rule tweaks. The most extreme is the WA has a slightly flatter progression. You can print out the changes yourself here and I believe the rules changes are already incorporated into the PDF of the rules.

https://ledergames.com/frequently-asked-questions/#rootupgra...

Its going to be awhile before the third printing is here and we are planning on reprinting all of the boards for past customers. As each expansion is produced we will completely reprint the rules in each set instead of printing supplement rule books anyway.
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Gordon Spaeth
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bassofthe wrote:
GamesMobile wrote:
I'm on my ancient phone. It's taken me a while to find the 1E rules and actually read them on it.
The link is right there in my previous post. Wouldn't be that hard to find if you actually bothered to read.

GamesMobile wrote:
When you have to stop game play on every turn to dig through the rules because there's an assumption made that you should already have them committed to memory, that becomes frustrating for less experienced players.
The only rules you are expected to remember are movement, rule, battle and buildings/tokens. Everything else is written on the faction boards.
I’m unsure why you’re being such a smug jerk. I told you my phone is old and slow and not conducive to quick downloads or reading of PDF files or responding. I didn’t click the link you sent because I was already searching for the files before I even read your post...

In response to your statement about all that needs to be remembered, I have only played the game twice and haven’t even seen many of the cards to know how they interact with the base rules. Your statement seems overly simplistic at a glance. Not sure I’ll play again to find out...
 
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Gordon Spaeth
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GreenM wrote:
The changes to the game were some rule tweaks. The most extreme is the WA has a slightly flatter progression. You can print out the changes yourself here and I believe the rules changes are already incorporated into the PDF of the rules.

https://ledergames.com/frequently-asked-questions/#rootupgra...

Its going to be awhile before the third printing is here and we are planning on reprinting all of the boards for past customers. As each expansion is produced we will completely reprint the rules in each set instead of printing supplement rule books anyway.
Thanks for the clarification. Not sure I’m going to bother getting expansions. I’ll hope the tableaus are flattened back out by the time I get home and put it up for sale...
 
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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GreenM wrote:
As each expansion is produced we will completely reprint the rules in each set instead of printing supplement rule books anyway.
I like this approach. I've got plenty of games with expansions and mini-expansions, leaving me with a bunch of booklets - and even worse, leaflets - to consult whenever I want to play. yuk
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Root is better when it comes to being just more polished. The rulebook for Root is superb. The asymmetry is easy to grasp. I like it a lot, but in the end, it's just another territory control/wargame, so from the very beginning it has to "fight" with other games of similar type, for your attention and time.

Vast, on the other hand, is unique in that you're still playing the wargame, but on a dungeoncrawling scene and that game is played on a set of interweaving planes. It makes it harder to understand and harder to play well, but infinitely more interesting. I have high hopes for the new Vast, which will revisit the idea and come back with better rulebook and overall polish - even though I'm not a big fan of the "manor" theme and prefer the "dungeon" trope. Can't have everything, I guess.
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Philemon
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Let's see where people are on a spectrum

Poll
What is your personal preference?
I enjoy Root, but dislike Vast
I enjoy both, but Root more than Vast
I enjoy both, but Vast more than Root
I enjoy Vast, but dislike Root
I tried both, but dislike both of them
      32 answers
Poll created by Philemonism
 
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Patrick Leder
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rattkin wrote:
I have high hopes for the new Vast, which will revisit the idea and come back with better rulebook and overall polish - even though I'm not a big fan of the "manor" theme and prefer the "dungeon" trope. Can't have everything, I guess.
I would just make dungeon crawled themed games if I thought I could get away with it market wise.
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