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Subject: On the fence about this game... rss

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So I’m definitely intrigued by this game. Just looking for some input on some of my reservations if you guys wouldn’t mind.

First off, I really enjoy Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death, and I’m pumped for My 7th continent and Middara kickstarters to arrive. I like soloable campaign games with cool mechanics.

My SS reservations:

1. Game seems super fragmented. It seems I need to buy basically everything available for immortal souls in order to have a complete game and I assume after that I shouldn’t be missing anything important from the kickstarter?
2. Compared to games like gloomhaven and KDM, it seems kinda short? Is this true or are quests generally pretty long and/or take multiple sessions to play through.
3. How do the combat mechanics and loot system compare to something like gloomhaven?
4. What’s the major differences from gloomhaven? What might make someone who likes gloomhaven dislike SS?
5. Anything totally interesting and unique about this game compared to other games in the genre ?

Thanks in advance
 
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al Cann
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I encourage you to do your own research on this game since there is a TON out there on the tips of your Google search fingertips.

That said ... I own GH, KDM, T7C, and I too am waiting for Middara. And I've played 99.9% of my plays of these games solo.

I liked S&S but it was too easy. Word is that the new iteration of the game, Ancient Chronicles, corrects those issues. You can still late pledge for this game that I suspect will be out early next year.

With all of those games you referenced ... save your money and get Ancient Chronicles and pass on Immortal Souls and its expansions. If you really want it, PM me and I'll sell you my Immortal Souls and the one expansion I have, Arcane Portal.
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albcann wrote:
I encourage you to do your own research on this game since there is a TON out there on the tips of your Google search fingertips.

That said ... I own GH, KDM, T7C, and I too am waiting for Middara. And I've played 99.9% of my plays of these games solo.

I liked S&S but it was too easy. Word is that the new iteration of the game, Ancient Chronicles, corrects those issues. You can still late pledge for this game that I suspect will be out early next year.

With all of those games you referenced ... save your money and get Ancient Chronicles and pass on Immortal Souls and its expansions. If you really want it, PM me and I'll sell you my Immortal Souls and the one expansion I have, Arcane Portal.

Pretty much what I figured - I def have been doing research but I don’t like watching playthroughs because it ruins it for me and the review section for this game is kinda glowing. But I kept struggling to see what this game does that’s so great compared to the other games I mentioned. I guess your answer is “it doesn’t really” haha.
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al Cann
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Bewbsnbawls wrote:
albcann wrote:
I encourage you to do your own research on this game since there is a TON out there on the tips of your Google search fingertips.

That said ... I own GH, KDM, T7C, and I too am waiting for Middara. And I've played 99.9% of my plays of these games solo.

I liked S&S but it was too easy. Word is that the new iteration of the game, Ancient Chronicles, corrects those issues. You can still late pledge for this game that I suspect will be out early next year.

With all of those games you referenced ... save your money and get Ancient Chronicles and pass on Immortal Souls and its expansions. If you really want it, PM me and I'll sell you my Immortal Souls and the one expansion I have, Arcane Portal.

Pretty much what I figured - I def have been doing research but I don’t like watching playthroughs because it ruins it for me and the review section for this game is kinda glowing. But I kept struggling to see what this game does that’s so great compared to the other games I mentioned. I guess your answer is “it doesn’t really” haha.

Honestly ... I'm right there with you on all the games you mentioned. I really was starting to like S&S but it is ridiculously lavish with handing out crowns (its form of money) and treasure. I started to leave stuff behind because it was silly, I didn't need any of it. Unfortunately, it took away from a game that had a very good story and a decent general game mechanic. That is why I am anxiously awaiting Ancient Chronicles. But based on your lineage ... I'd would steer clear.

If you really must get another dungeon crawler, I like Folklore: The Affliction better. D and D in a box.
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Steve Kingsley
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To answer your question what sets apart S&S from other dungeon crawlers, for me it's the AI. Enemies will act intelligently and even actively work together.

But for a more detailed breakdown, Mike and I did a mini (spoiler free) debate on episode 37 of our podcast Coop Cast: https://soundcloud.com/user-318456537/coop-cast-episode-37-g...

Hopefully you can find what you are seeking there
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Gustav Snyman
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I didnt know about the new kickstarter before I bought this. Its kind of depressing when you buy a game that has glowing reviews but then everyone recommends buying the better newer version cause this one actually suck. Jeez.I propably shouldnt let this get under my skin.

So far Im enjoying and will most likely keep it on my shelf. Definately not a waste - a Lot better than the DnD games or Brimstone. Last one was shallow and grindy as hell. Didnt get the rage at all.

Boardgames has gotten to the point where theres always something better, sleeker, prettier next year... so why buy this now?

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Gene Chiu
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Bewbsnbawls wrote:
1. Game seems super fragmented. It seems I need to buy basically everything available for immortal souls in order to have a complete game and I assume after that I shouldn’t be missing anything important from the kickstarter?

You don't need anything more than the base game. If you want more character options, you can buy hero packs, but I don't think they are necessary.

Quote:
2. Compared to games like gloomhaven and KDM, it seems kinda short? Is this true or are quests generally pretty long and/or take multiple sessions to play through.

The first 3 quests take about an hour per character to complete. With 2 characters, it takes about 2 hours. With 5, it can take 5 hours.

Quote:
3. How do the combat mechanics and loot system compare to something like gloomhaven?

Combat is rolling dice to see how many hits you land. Different types of attacks (different weapons and spells, for eg.) will have different numbers and types of dice and different bonuses. Positioning also can possibly give you bonuses. Then armour can reduce the amount of damage by a flat rate plus defence rolls on dice.

The loot you get is based on the enemy you defeat. The enemy card indicates what loot it drops from money, XP or other loot.

I don't know Gloomhaving, so I cannot compare. I hope my description helps.

Quote:
4. What’s the major differences from gloomhaven? What might make someone who likes gloomhaven dislike SS?

I've not played Gloomhaven.

Quote:
5. Anything totally interesting and unique about this game compared to other games in the genre ?

This game feels like a D&D adventure without the need for a DM. The character classes feel a lot like certain classes in D&D. The enemies each have a different AI, so fighting different enemies makes the battle feel different. The different AI and different abilities make you take a different approach when fighting different enemies. There is also a quest where when I first played it, we got slaughtered. The setup of the fight along with the AI of the enemies made the fight an ambush. I thought it was really cool that there are these situations that make it interesting and not just about moving to the nearest guy and attacking all the time. Of course after the ambush was spoiled, I knew how to deal with it, but still it was a very interesting challenge. Different quests seem to have situations that make combat interesting and challenging, particularly when you first play each quest.
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Timo R
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Snaphaan wrote:
I didnt know about the new kickstarter before I bought this. Its kind of depressing when you buy a game that has glowing reviews but then everyone recommends buying the better newer version cause this one actually suck. Jeez.I propably shouldnt let this get under my skin.

So far Im enjoying and will most likely keep it on my shelf. Definately not a waste - a Lot better than the DnD games or Brimstone. Last one was shallow and grindy as hell. Didnt get the rage at all.

Boardgames has gotten to the point where theres always something better, sleeker, prettier next year... so why buy this now?

You have to put a few things into perspective. There isn't a perfect dungeon crawling board game (yet?) and there is a lot of subjectivity in everything people state in their reviews.

To me, S&S is a great game, but like every other system, it has its weaknesses that gradually come to light the more time a community of diverse consumers spends with it. Part of that community are very demanding and very experienced veterans of the genre that will, given enough time, vivisect every single aspect of the system they have decided to sink their teeth into (like some kind of sport ^^). And usually, they find issues of categories ranging from "problem to the average gaming group" over "only affects people with very specific expectations" to "comes down to personal preference".

And guess what, where do many of these people (me included) go and voice their opinion and hope to start debate with like minded individuals with an equally high passion for the subject? Yes, BBG forums is one of these places. Most of the time, there is debate on issues and potential solutions which could make the next iteration of a game system even better, rather than praise for what already has been accomplished by the game designers. There is a lot of negativity, but it most of the time is constructive and not meant to say, that a game with glowing reviews in truth actually sucks - it's just not perfect



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Tomer Mlynarsky
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First off, just so you know a little bit more about my tastes :

I played KDM. Honestly didn't like it very much. Very cool concepts, but the mechanics are very dry. It's mostly a grinding game and it takes a long time until you can get a decent amount of equipment (the events are too random) that you can actually make tactical choices and it stops being random dice chunking.

Gloomhaven I have a party for, we're very much near the end I presume, we've unlocked all characters and side scenarios. Though just prosperity 7.

7th Continent was the most boring experience of my life, however, I can see the appeal it has for solo play. It's just that as a group game it's pointless.


This is just so you know a bit of who I am and how my opinion goes.

I have played S&S campaigns several times, including both with groups and solo.


Snaphaan wrote:
I didnt know about the new kickstarter before I bought this. Its kind of depressing when you buy a game that has glowing reviews but then everyone recommends buying the better newer version cause this one actually suck.
To put it at a better perspective, the new KS will likely have some changes (hopefully for the better). But the old one is still good and everything is compatible.

You can take the new heroes to the the previous campaign and vice versa. The monsters are interchangeable if you want etc.

Think of it more like a new expansion.

I liked the game and plan on getting the new KS and I'm not getting rid of the existing one.

Bewbsnbawls wrote:

1. Game seems super fragmented. It seems I need to buy basically everything available for immortal souls in order to have a complete game and I assume after that I shouldn’t be missing anything important from the kickstarter?
Only 1 thing was really KS exclusive mechanically and that's Tristan. 1 Hero. You can get it from the KS as well.

The rest of it was just bling which frankly some was good and some was redundant. All of it you can grab from the new one I believe if you really want.

But mechanically, it's just Tristan. And frankly, you can event P&P him if you like.

Bewbsnbawls wrote:

2. Compared to games like gloomhaven and KDM, it seems kinda short? Is this true or are quests generally pretty long and/or take multiple sessions to play through.
Immortal Souls is divided into several sub-campaigns. You don't need to go through all of them and you can jump between different ones (though there aren't any out yet) if you like.

Think of it in D&D terms as different adventures you can play through. Some are more connected, others not as much.

Currently you have :
Immortal Souls (level 1-4), Arcane Portal (3-4), Darkness Falls (4-6), The Dragon's lair (6-7) (sorry, can never spell the actual dragon's name)

You also have a couple of hero packs that give you extra hero selection.

Immortal Souls and Darkness Falls have I think about 7 quests overall, but you only play 6 of them I believe (you have 2 missions to choose from).

Each one can take from an hour and a half about 4+ hours. Mostly depending on number of players.

Arcane Portal and the final one have both 4 quests each - though they are much MUCH longer.

Also note that a big difference between S&S and Gloomhaven, is that if you do a full run of S&S, you start and finish with the same characters. Unlike Gloomhaven that let's you shift your characters constantly as you retire and open new envelopes.

So there is little point in running Gloomhaven twice, since you've seen "everything" but in S&S you can play the campaign with entirely different characters for the first time.

It also should be noted that S&S comes with a storybook. You'll see events during missions that would change how things go.

For example (not in the game - no spoiler), you see a group of cultists working on a ritual. Do you want to interrupt them or not?

If you do, the cultists will attack you.
If not, they all die and a demon shows up.

So you have an incentive to play it again and make different choices.
I don't want to make a bigger deal out of it, most of the time it's usually a choice between "good" or "bad".

I guess think of it like the City\Road events in Gloomhaven, except they actually change the mission you're facing.

Bewbsnbawls wrote:

3. How do the combat mechanics and loot system compare to something like gloomhaven?

Gloomhaven is more of a euro game with hand management and such.
S&S is more like a classic dungeon crawler (even though most of it is outside )

The monsters AI is far better in S&S in my opinion.
In Gloomhaven, it's very static, to the point that you can almost guarantee that a decent tank up front will soak up all the damage.

Monsters will never run past him.

There are also no surprises in Gloomhaven. You know when the monster will act and what it will do. It's easier to crowed control because you also know that if you stun a monster it's completely out of the round.

In S&S it's very different. In S&S, each hero (2-5, depending on your party) take turns during a round.

After a hero is done doing stuff, there's a monster phase. Now you pick up a card that will instruct which monsters will act.

It can be "none", "2 monsters" (based on player order), "all Magic monsters", "all red monsters" (mini bosses) etc

So if you have 5 heroes, you'll make 5 such draws during a round.

That means the same gremlin, for instance, might attack several times in a round. It's a bit more chaotic and give you an extra careful thrill.

When a monster acts, they have a very specific AI that tells each monster what to look for and what to do.

For example, again made up example :
The goblin always tries to target "Faith" characters if they can.
If there is one in range 0-2, move to attack them. Otherwise, shoot an arrow and take a step back.

So if you have a tank and a cleric behind him, the goblin will move towards the cleric and attack it. Something that will never happen in Gloomhaven. So you need to move the cleric further than 2 squares if you want to make sure he won't be attacked.

Also note that in Gloomhaven, you have specific squares where 1 monster\hero per square. S&S the areas are much bigger with no limit to how many people can occupy the same space.



Beyond that, Gloomhaven uses the card modifier to replace dice.
S&S uses the classic rpg system of dice chucking. You won't get better modifiers as you level up, but you'll get cooler powers or your existing ones will throw more dice.

Also in Gloomhaven, the monsters are always the same. A regular Living Corpse is always the same no matter what. In S&S, every monster is different.

When a monster is placed on the board, it gets a random power card (sometimes 2). That means that if you play the campaign again, you'll meet at the same spot 2 different goblins.

One has a flaming sword, the other has a spiked armor, the third one is a master that brings another monster into play etc


As far as loot goes, in S&S, loot is shared between all players. It's fully co-op. Gold will drop from treasure chests, story events but mostly from monsters upon killing. Same for XP. The party has a joint pool and when someone can level up, they take from the pool itself.

So if we have 4 XP in the pool and the two of us are level 1 (need 4 to level 4) then we have to pick only 1 of us to level up.
The other one will do it next time.

Treasures are sadly a bit random. There's a deck of cards and when you're told to draw a treasure you just pick one. It's not the open system Gloomhaven has, but basic items are available in town - always.

One thing to note is that in Gloomhaven, everyone can wear everything. In S&S, characters are divided into 4 categories (basically Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, Cleric) and each item says which archetype can wear it.


Bewbsnbawls wrote:

4. What’s the major differences from gloomhaven? What might make someone who likes gloomhaven dislike SS?
Many things, but keep in mind that doesn't apply to everyone. I very much enjoy both games.

1) Gloomhaven is more puzzle-like while S&S is more tactical skirmish
2) Gloomhaven has the whole legacy thing. Envelopes opening etc.
3) Gloomhaven gameplay is actually very dry, thus the retire mechanics is used to keep your interest. You get bored from playing a wizard? Fine, a couple of sessions and you'll switch to a druid.

In S&S you're not "supposed" to replace your character, but you can.
4) Gloomhaven has an illusion of inflated content.
A lot of people go "this game has 100 scenarios!" best VFM ever!
Except I think that's a lot of hype. Most missions are actually extremely similar (kill all monsters) and as someone who has played that game a lot I honestly don't see my moves change between missions once you get the hang of your character until you pick a new one.

5) S&S has more fluff in the story, Gloomhaven only gives you the fluff between missions (events, town records).

Also, I have to be honest and say that Immortal Souls comes with a lot of dumb pop culture references. They promised it won't be in the next campaign.

6) Both games are a bit fiddly. Gloomhaven personally is a game I consider unplayable without the app.
S&S sadly still doesn't have an app.
Though it's less of a hassle than Gloomhaven in that regard.


Bewbsnbawls wrote:

5. Anything totally interesting and unique about this game compared to other games in the genre ?

Thanks in advance

Beyond specific mechanics above, I think that S&S gives you a great feeling of tension during an adventure. You don't know what's going to come out next.

Whereas a game like Gloomhaven shows you the entire map in advance and doesn't really much "surprises" in it, in S&S the same mission can change in a lot of ways.

You have a random monster deck from which you draw, so you never know what's going to come up next (though the deck is slim so you have a rough idea). Monsters show up with random powers.

After every turn, a random number of monsters will act

At the end of every 2nd round, an event occurs - which usually involves more monsters but also sometimes game effects.

Then there are the random treasures and special story points -
You know once you step into the church something will happen but no idea what.

Story choices can also be minimal or very game changing.

For example, at one point (no spoiler) a mission can turn into an area control or escort depending on your choice.
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Stephan Beal
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GrandMasterFox wrote:
Only 1 thing was really KS exclusive mechanically and that's Tristan. 1 Hero. You can get it from the KS as well.
...
But mechanically, it's just Tristan.

Mechanically, there's also the Hollywood equipment deck. It wasn't declared as KS-exclusive, but it also hasn't been released/announced for retail. (Conversely, the purple dice/token pouch was unambiguously listed as KS-exclusive but is available in retail.)
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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sgbeal wrote:

Mechanically, there's also the Hollywood equipment deck. It wasn't declared as KS-exclusive, but it also hasn't been released/announced for retail. (Conversely, the purple dice/token pouch was unambiguously listed as KS-exclusive but is available in retail.)
I just assumed they'd release them in the final campaign or something since it was never said to be KSE.

But maybe they changed their mind.

If that's the case, I stand corrected.
 
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Paul Bauman
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Here’s my personal rollercoaster, copied from my comments after a handful of plays. I started playing last year, then parked it when Dungeon Degenerates hit me like a maelstrom, along with Gloomhaven & some other non-dungeon related games. I returned to it recently and got hooked for a few more quests. It’ certainly a good crawler and arguably the only game in town in some aspects, but with some reservations. My personal background in a nutshell: I like older, more “fiddly” dungeon crawlers like Descent 1st Ed (which I get into in the “review”) and adventure games like Runebound 2nd Ed. I’m lukewarm on Gloomhaven, and actively dislike Mage Knight. I’m not allergic to weak story, but I have limits (also detailed below). WARNING: some expletives are used.

——-

I've only played 2 sessions of the Sword & Sorcery prologue but my initial impression is guardedly favorable. If all goes well, this will be the "Descent 1st Edition Sans Overlord" game that I was seeking a few years ago, though I'm guessing that I'm in the minority here. I'm not sure many are still looking for this style of game in 2017? In the context of Gloomhaven, which effectively beat this game to the punch with zero miniatures more content, I suspect that S&S won't make a huge splash and that's fine. I don't think there's much of a splash to be made in this corner of the genre any more.

I do, maybe perversely, enjoy the seemingly infinite recess of dice parsing in Sword & Sorcery, which I think will just cause some hair-pulling for others.

*Chucks 4 dice*

Let's see... two hits and a surge, +1 hit because I used my non-combat action to focus, +1 hit because we're dominating the area, -1 because it's night, one hit absorbed by armor 1, but I got a surge for a crit! *draws crit counter*... Armor minus 1! ...

*Gremlin rolls two defense dice*... he blocks all but one hit.

TLDR; after mod attrition extravaganza, two die rolls, and a chit pull: 1HP damage. And that's a pretty bare-bones example.

There's lots of this, on every single turn. Add saving rolls, enemies that cause a round of defense rolls for the entire party because of AoE reactions, special powers to activate for further modifications, AI cards to verify for weapon-type resistances & other behaviors, cooldown timers to manage and... you get the idea. The light dungeon crawl gamer need not apply (you've got plenty of options anyhow).

The special sauce of this game is the Book of Secrets, which conceals scripted events and separates them from the main Scenario book used during setup. This adds a nice layer of surprise to compensate for the lack of exploration or branching in most of the dungeons that I've perused in the early sections of the campaign. However, while it adds to the immersion, the concealed script also guarantees a limited shelf life for the initial campaign. You can add variability by changing your party composition to keep things fresh (and each character has a lawful/chaotic ability tree, so you can try the "dark" side of a favorite), but the general flow of the scenarios will only be a surprise once.

The ultra special sauce is the AI, which is probably the best that I’ve seen in any dungeon crawler. Enemies hit & run, buff their groups, self-heal, heal others, prioritize heroes beyond “hur dur lowest HP smash!” It beats Gloomhaven in this regard, by a mile.

Overall, I think the design succeeds in its goal of creating a very strong entry in this subgenre of quasi-scripted, campaign-only, dice-chucker dungeon crawls, while also demonstrating that perhaps it's time to stop chipping away at this design space. They've really mined it clean with this one.

Eh, who am I kidding. We'll keep mining it forever!

Edit 2/8/19 after 3 more quest sessions:

I've jumped back into this a year and a half later and... while the rules resisted a quick re-absorption as I was trying to "skim" them and just get playing (hah!), I did greatly enjoy the payoff once the scenario was underway.

The Descent 1st ed flavor still sits really well with me. I've come to enjoy this slower, more methodical & tactical approach to dungeon crawling that avoids the Scylla & Charybdis of "shallow tactical race" on one side (Zombicide, Massive Darkness) and "Card Management: The RPG" on the other (Gloomhaven, Mage Knight).

The payoff lies in the deep tactical options and versatility that this style of game provides without Euro-gamifying the skill/ability selection layer and neutering the delightful, controlled chaos of polyhedral dice. I don't want my skill & equipment dashboard to be turned into a Euro minigame, or my dice to be transformed into deckbuilding tedium, but I also don't want everything to devolve into "chuck some D6's and hit on 5-6 or get punched in the dick!" (Zombicide, Darklight, etc).

This design knows the sweet spot that some of us dungeon crawler veterans have been craving and stays there. It does not compromise in the face of some potential "fiddliness" and slowness, because newsflash: that's where the interesting shit in this genre resides. Not in the perpetually generic fantasy story that so many try to make engaging & interesting. Not in blitzing through speed bump enemies to hit a switch across a map before the timer runs out.

Want less upkeep? Play an RPG and don't DM. Don't want to DM but would still like to deliberate the rich set of tactical options you would normally have in RPG combat? Play this!

However, I’ve gotta say, while I have some tolerance for corniness, the writing did absolutely no favors to this game after several quests. It reads like someone struggled to meet a deadline, started a Rise of the Runelords ripoff story, then realized they were out of ideas and started flailing with Hollywood parodies like some 12 year old composing actively bad fan fiction because they figure, hey, this is due tomorrow so might as well make it funny! With a name like Sword & Sorcery, there’s generally zero awareness of genre, & it feels more like World of Warcraft. This would be mostly fine (crawlers are almost all in this vein) if not for the added bankruptcy in the imagination department. It doesn’t ruin the game for me, but the eye rolling alone brings this down half a peg. Downgrading to a 7.5

I can’t get this song out of my head whenever I start playing now:

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Malte Hauer
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So far I really enjoy the game. I have the german retail version, so getting the KS versions is out of question.
Of course there are weaknesses in the rules, however you can just adjust it to your liking, making it harder or easier by your gusto.

I own the core game and expansions Onamor and Victoria. With those you get a bit more variance in the group, but it's still nice to play without expansions. The game states you need 30min/player per quests. Now after 3,5 quests I see it's more up to 1h/player (what I really like as the game gets longer).

The AI makes the enemies intelligent, however, some heroes are targeted more often than others (but those are often the tanks anyway). If you play it right, you can even control the enemies by your strategy of play. For example: Gremlins mostly go to the richest hero, so giving the strongest hero more money than others means, he is most likely to be attacked. The game certainly needs good teamwork.

After playing 5h by myself (learning to master the rules is best done alone) and almost 20h with friends I am quite certain, that I will also by the following expansions.
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Jeroen
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Okay, I am a big Gloomhaven fan who recently suported the S&S KS and bought S&S Immortal Souls in retail. My answers to your reservations:

1 I own the base game and probably won't buy expansions as I will receive the new KS at some point. You don't really miss much if you buy all expansions though.

2 Yes, the campaign is a lot shorter than GH. The missions probably take a little longer than a Gloomhaven scenario, but there are only 7 in the S&S base game. If you add all expansions, it's still not close to GH in length. Imho the game is fun enough to repeat missions though.

3 Characters have items and powers they can use during combat. These are static (you'll normally use the same weapon throughout a mission), but you can level up and/or find (and use) better loot during a mission. Enemies act after every hero turn, so it's important to move in the optimal order and kill the biggest threats asap.

4 It's not as 'heavy'/'euro'/'dry'(some terms mentioned by others) as Gloomhaven. It's a lot of fun, but there's a bit more randomness, especially concerning loot. You can plunk away with your starter bow for the entire campaign while your buddy has found the 'Majestic Sword of Awesomeness +17' in round 2 of the first mission.

5 Not really. S&S is closer to other crawlers than GH is. It's a bit similar to Descent/IA. Except there's no Overlord/Emperor but an AI that works quite well.

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Crimsonsun God
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Love Sword and Sorcery having recently brought it plus the expansions and a few hero packs, will be late backing the KS this month too. It scratches an itch I've not had scratched for a long time, not since decent 1 or WHQ original.

I'm hoping middara will be along the same lines, they are very much alike in mechanics and structure, will find out next month.

I also love Kingdom Death Monster (I own all the gameplay and I have all the KS stuff coming) but this isn't anything like it. Not even close different in every respect. Both are great but I don't think you can compare them.

Its a modern custom dice based co-op dungeon crawl, will solid AI and rather than cut corners in product they release it in a episodic fashion, personally I'm happy to pay more for a modular product thats fleshed out and not had corners cut. I'll jump in as a late backer since I'm very happy with the end product. I love custom dice pool target systems they complete multiple tasks rolls in a single die roll. I have a wife and daughter so my gaming time is limited and thus I very much apprieciate a solid AI system, and this has as strong as I've seen in a dungeon crawl anywhere (its not KDM deep but the focus is very different). Games its most like are in my mind Middara (they are very close in design and mechanic style) and folklore though that's combat leaves a lot to be desired but has stronger story elements. I guess decent 2 is in the same genre but I feel it suffers from being not really a proper Dungeon crawler and not being initially designed for full co-op it was adapted to this. Gloomhaven is radically different which is why its so popular with the same theme, its good for being different but I find sword and sorcery more enjoyable.

As someone who's been playing dungeon crawlers since the 80's I've got to say content or scenario gameplay in these games is only ever as limited as your creativity and personally when Ancient chronicles gets here I'll be putting my pen to paper and writing some linked scenarios - eventually a campaign because its good fun to do so!
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Justin U
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Hello,

I completed the main core game and two xpacs that are out right now in retail and I own Gloomhaven but only played three quests so far.

I def like S&S MUCH better then gloomhaven. I thought S&S was too easy my first few games like allot of people say but after going over the rules I found out I really messed up allot of stuff.

I'm currently on my second playthrough of S&S playing correctly and I'm loving it. I'm about to start the last quest of the core game and I didn't earn enough gold to buy everything in the shop and only one of my five characters are max level 4 the rest are level 3. And the last few quests I barely won after failing a few times each.

I think once you really nail the rules and follow them correctly its a very challenging game and I would highly recommend it!
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