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Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Impact of successful Challenge still counted? rss

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Seth Homa
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Well hello there.

The situation - you (let's say Gold Player) plays a card. Gold Player's block deploys and his impact is counted (let's say it gave him three Impact) and he (Gold Player) adjusts his Impact count on his track accordingly. Black Player immediately plays a Loyalty Challenge card. Gold Player cannot produce a matching card and the golden block defects.

The question - does the Gold Player subtract three Impact from his track since his block defected?

My guess is no - but the phrase "...They are played out of turn..." about Loyalty Challenge cards made me stop and think. A firm answer would be appreciated.
 
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Andrew B
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MichiganEagle wrote:
Well hello there.

The situation - you (let's say Gold Player) plays a card. Gold Player's block deploys and his impact is counted (let's say it gave him three Impact) and he (Gold Player) adjusts his Impact count on his track accordingly. Black Player immediately plays a Loyalty Challenge card. Gold Player cannot produce a matching card and the golden block defects.

The question - does the Gold Player subtract three Impact from his track since his block defected?

My guess is no - but the phrase "...They are played out of turn..." about Loyalty Challenge cards made me stop and think. A firm answer would be appreciated.
They are subtracted, impact of a block is only added to one side, always. If the block switched sides it will add its impact to the opposing side only.
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Matt Albritton
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The above is correct. You shouldn't count impact until you've given your opponent a chance to play a loyalty challenge.
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Alex
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Your troop defected to the other side. They now generate impact for your opponent, not for you.
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Seth Homa
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Aha...so I assumed incorrectly.


It seemed weird to count defected Impact, but, at the same time, I reasoned that maybe some of my fighting men fought for me and then defected mid-battle, mid-day or something (after I forget to feed them at lunchtime or whatever whistle ).

Maybe I skimmed over something, but the Rulebook made it seem like Impact was counted first, then opponent has a chance to challenge...nowhere did it say to subtract the Impact NOR did it say something like "Don't count Impact just yet..."

Thank you, gentlemen.
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Matt Albritton
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MichiganEagle wrote:
Maybe I skimmed over something, but the Rulebook made it seem like Impact was counted first,
It's under "Loyalty Challenge Cards", 8.6.1, page 9:

..."They are played out of turn, immediately after a deployment by the opposing player... (bold is mine)

and later in the paragraph,

"Count Impact for the block..."
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Seth Homa
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Kubigaruma wrote:
MichiganEagle wrote:
Maybe I skimmed over something, but the Rulebook made it seem like Impact was counted first,
It's under "Loyalty Challenge Cards", 8.6.1, page 9:

..."They are played out of turn, immediately after a deployment by the opposing player... (bold is mine)

and later in the paragraph,

"Count Impact for the block..."

The worst part - I had seen the word "immediately" the first time around and somehow talked myself out of the correct interpretation.

So, basically, a card gets played and before the Impact track is even adjusted, the Loyalty Challenge card gets played. That's why there's no extra "Subtract three Impact" or the like included in the rulebook.

In my head, I had made the "immediately" part mean only that it is played before Black Player continues making regular mon-card plays into the battle.
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Peter Mogensen
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Corollary question...

The rules say that impact is now counted on the other side.

However... does that mean that the calculation is done again on the new side or does the calculated impact just move?

In other words... if you successfully challenge a block which would have had bonus for matching blocks on the deploying side, does the other player also get those bonuses with the defecting block or do you do a new calculation on the side of the player playing the loyalty challenge? (where there would only be bonuses if he had made other matching block defect)
 
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Andrew B
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moriarty wrote:
Corollary question...

The rules say that impact is now counted on the other side.

However... does that mean that the calculation is done again on the new side or does the calculated impact just move?

In other words... if you successfully challenge a block which would have had bonus for matching blocks on the deploying side, does the other player also get those bonuses with the defecting block or do you do a new calculation on the side of the player playing the loyalty challenge? (where there would only be bonuses if he had made other matching block defect)
It is recalculated. So, if it is the first block of that specific daimyo it will just be the base value. However, if another block of the same daimyo defects in the future it will get the bonus.

Also, remember that special attacks do not trigger on a defection. However, if you play a special attack later in that fight the block that had defected contributes to the bonus for the block deployed with the special attack.

Is it clear or should we have an example to elucidate things futher?
 
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Peter Mogensen
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andrewbwm wrote:
It is recalculated. So, if it is the first block of that specific daimyo it will just be the base value. However, if another block of the same daimyo defects in the future it will get the bonus.

Also, remember that special attacks do not trigger on a defection. However, if you play a special attack later in that fight the block that had defected contributes to the bonus for the block deployed with the special attack.

Is it clear or should we have an example to elucidate things futher?
No... it's clear. This was also how I read the rules, but when my opponent objected, I had to grant that the rules were not 100% clear about whether calculated impact was transferred or a new calculation was done.

And I think it's nice to have that answer here in this thread too for future reference if anyone is in doubt.
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Ryan Nip
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andrewbwm wrote:
if another block of the same daimyo defects in the future
Well, it's a paradox. cool

If a player can play a card to deploy "another block of the same daimyo", the first Loyalty Challenge would not have succeeded at all.
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Andrew B
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free_planet wrote:
andrewbwm wrote:
if another block of the same daimyo defects in the future
Well, it's a paradox. cool

If a player can play a card to deploy "another block of the same daimyo", the first Loyalty Challenge would not have succeeded at all.
That's true, the only time that ever happens is if you deploy using a double card.
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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There is also an option for bluffing or trying to keep the card(s) for a future battle, and changing your mind afterwards.
Far-fetched.
 
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Pouyan A.
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tublefou wrote:
There is also an option for bluffing or trying to keep the card(s) for a future battle, and changing your mind afterwards.
Far-fetched.
Wow - is this actually a valid thing to do? I was under the impression that you had to tell the truth about your loyalty when a loyalty challenge came up. If this isn't true, then wow that's yet another strategic layer to this amazing game.
 
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Ryan Nip
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tublefou wrote:
There is also an option for bluffing
While the rule doesn't prohibit such act, what can you achieve/benefit from such "bluffing"? Even if the defect block is a 2-mon block, there's a 4 points swing in Impact (would be more if blocks of the same daimyo have already been deployed). If the defected block is a cavalry or a gun block, it would even contribute to subsequent Special Attacks, a potentially even greater swing.

tublefou wrote:
keep the card(s) for a future battle
Please note that the card shown to refute a Loyalty Challenge returns to the hand of the player. You don't spend any card to refute a Loyalty Challenge and you don't gain any card by refusing to refute a Loyalty Challenge.
If you do want to keep a card for a future battle, why don't you refrain from deploying the block from the outset?
 
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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Hence the far-fetched for the bluffing.
I've never even envisioned doing this, but there may be situations I have yet to face where it makes sense.

The comment about keeping the card doesn't make any sense. I wasn't properly awake when I wrote that.
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James Megee
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Thanks for this post Seth! The ORIGINAL question is the exact same one I had.
 
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