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Subject: Hardened Defenses with Lightning Bolt or Sniper Rifle rss

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The Hardened Defenses Crossfire card reads: "The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level."

The question is, if you have a level-clearing card like Lightning Bolt or Sniper Rifle, do you have to deal +1 damage on top of the level-clearing?

That's the way I played it (didn't matter; it was the last turn of the game), but in this thread:
Lighting Bolt, with Hardened Defenses Crossfire Card

they were speculating that the level-clearing effects ignore Hardened Defenses.
 
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Fenmar
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My first reaction from what you write is that you do not have to do +1 damage. Lighting bolt and sniper rifle clear a level disregarding from the damage required. Thus, the +1 damage malus is applied to the first level, but LB & SR still ignore the amount of damage and clear the level completely.
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Stephen Zipprich
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faucelme wrote:
The Hardened Defenses Crossfire card reads: "The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level."

The question is, if you have a level-clearing card like Lightning Bolt or Sniper Rifle, do you have to deal +1 damage on top of the level-clearing?

That's the way I played it (didn't matter; it was the last turn of the game), but in this thread:
Lighting Bolt, with Hardened Defenses Crossfire Card

they were speculating that the level-clearing effects ignore Hardened Defenses.
I don't interpret the reply in that thread to say it ignores H.D. Rather, he is saying if Lightning Bolt's effect is applied after another card then the level that card was applied to would require an additional damage.

The wording of the two cards in question would imply that they ignore any damage requirements.
 
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stevozip wrote:
faucelme wrote:
The Hardened Defenses Crossfire card reads: "The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level."

The question is, if you have a level-clearing card like Lightning Bolt or Sniper Rifle, do you have to deal +1 damage on top of the level-clearing?

That's the way I played it (didn't matter; it was the last turn of the game), but in this thread:
Lighting Bolt, with Hardened Defenses Crossfire Card

they were speculating that the level-clearing effects ignore Hardened Defenses.
I don't interpret the reply in that thread to say it ignores H.D. Rather, he is saying if Lightning Bolt's effect is applied after another card then the level that card was applied to would require an additional damage.

The wording of the two cards in question would imply that they ignore any damage requirements.
Thanks, but the part you're talking about is not in question. I believe I understand that part of it just fine.

My question is whether applying the level-clearing damage also requires expending an additional point of damage. This still seems ambiguous to me.
 
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Stephen Zipprich
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As I mentioned earlier,

stevozip wrote:
.

The wording of the two cards in question would imply that they ignore any damage requirements.
If you read pg 16 of the rule book, it's an example of defeating two obstacles, and the player uses Lightning Bolt in the example. It says

Quote:
When you clear a level, it doesn’t matter how much damage
you would normally have to do,
when talking about applying the damage after cards are played. For full context, it would probably make sense for you to read it.
 
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stevozip wrote:
As I mentioned earlier,

stevozip wrote:
.

The wording of the two cards in question would imply that they ignore any damage requirements.
If you read pg 16 of the rule book, it's an example of defeating two obstacles, and the player uses Lightning Bolt in the example. It says

Quote:
When you clear a level, it doesn’t matter how much damage
you would normally have to do,
when talking about applying the damage after cards are played. For full context, it would probably make sense for you to read it.
Thanks for pointing to the example on p. 17. I read it when I first read the rules, and I re-read it just now, but I feel there's still sufficient ambiguity here. Note in your quote it says "it doesn't matter how much damage you would normally have to do" (italics mine). Not clear to me if the damage Hardened Defenses adds is considered "normal" damage or if it is supposed to be a prerequisite on top of any damage, including level-clearing damage.

To me, the precise wording of Hardened Defenses specifically says it's on top of level-clearing damage like Lightning Bolt. Your interpretation may vary.

At this point rather than trying to understand the card interaction based on interpretation of ambiguous rules, we would need to understand the game designers' intent with Hardened Defenses. And I don't know if we'll get this other than through a direct ruling from the designers or other official source.
 
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Stephen Zipprich
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It sounds like you're just making it harder on yourself...the game is already hard enough.

It adds +1 damage but when you play cards that clear levels like these they aren't dealing damage. They just nullify the damage requirements of the level, even the modified ones. Doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me.
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stevozip wrote:
It sounds like you're just making it harder on yourself...the game is already hard enough.

It adds +1 damage but when you play cards that clear levels like these they aren't dealing damage. They just nullify the damage requirements of the level, even the modified ones. Doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me.
Hmmm. The text of Lightning Bolt says: "Damage: Deal 2 consecutive levels of damage to an obstacle."

RA SM-4 Sniper Rifle: "Damage: Deal 2 levels of damage to an obstacle if they are the obstacle's last 2 levels."

They each mention the word "damage" twice, so I have to assume they are actually dealing damage.

One interpretation, admittedly not the only interpretation, is that they are dealing exactly the amount of damage needed to clear the level. So if the level requires three damage to clear, the card deals three damage to that level.

Now we re-read Hardened Defenses: "The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level."

This card specifically mentions "clearing" a level. The more I read this Crossfire card, the more it sounds (to me) like they are specifically taking the level-clearing cards into account, that the +1 is on top of the level-clearing damage.

I'm not saying I'm correct. For all I know, you have exactly the right interpretation. I'm just saying it sounds ambiguous to me.

Believe me, if this makes the difference between success and failure, I'll definitely hope for the easier interpretation. But I'd like to play the game the way the designers intended.
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Bob Bobson
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faucelme wrote:
Not clear to me if the damage Hardened Defenses adds is considered "normal" damage or if it is supposed to be a prerequisite on top of any damage, including level-clearing damage.

At this point rather than trying to understand the card interaction based on interpretation of ambiguous rules, we would need to understand the game designers' intent with Hardened Defenses.
I've tried looking at it from the perspective of the damage track. The question seems to be: Does Hardened Defenses add to the existing level or add a separate linked level?


A: indigo1db | coffee | indigo (3 levels total)

vs.

B: indigo + 1db | coffee | indigo (4 levels total)

With A, a lone Lightning Bolt would clear the first two levels and leave indigo

With B, a lone Lightning Bolt would clear the first two levels and leave coffee | indigo

-

There are a few reasons why I believe A is closer to the designers' intent, but agree that it is too ambiguous to know for sure.

https://dragonfirethegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Sav...
First, Dragonfire has some damage levels that consist of multiple types/amounts of damage that must be cleared all at once, but can be cleared by "level damage".

Second, the HCO obstacles Warded Mage and Buttoned-up Hacker have the ability "This obstacle can't have more than 2 levels of damage cleared from it each turn". A seems more compatible with these.

Last, the HCO black market card Shatter (Damage: Deal 1 level of damage to an obstacle) would be unable to deal any damage on it's own with B. All other 4Y cards deal at least 2 damage and would often be able to clear a level with A or B. A seems more consistent here.
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As worded:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level.

As many of you are trying to word it:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn has an extra (1) level in front of all currently undamaged levels.

---

If a level has:

1

1+1

9999999+1

it's still one level, and level-clear abilities will still clear the level.
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Sean McCarthy
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It's been 5 years so my memory is a little hazy but I have to come down on the side of "Lightning Bolt trumps Hardened Defenses". The (1) is part of that level, so when you defeat the whole level, that includes the (1).
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SevenSpirits wrote:
It's been 5 years so my memory is a little hazy but I have to come down on the side of "Lightning Bolt trumps Hardened Defenses". The (1) is part of that level, so when you defeat the whole level, that includes the (1).
Well there you have it folks.

I like the image of a lightning bolt (or a sniper rifle) splitting open some obstacle's pathetic armor.

If this situation ever occurs again, I'll chuckle grimly to myself.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
As worded:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level.

As many of you are trying to word it:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn has an extra (1) level in front of all currently undamaged levels.
The point is moot now, but I was never claiming that Hardened Defenses adds an extra level to an obstacle. I was simply not sure whether you applied the Hardened Defenses effect before the Lightning Bolt effect (in which case, blam, Lightning Bolt wins), or whether you apply the Lightning Bolt effect before Hardened Defenses (in which case, you still need an extra damage).

Anyway, the question has been definitively answered. Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread!
 
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faucelme wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
As worded:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level.

As many of you are trying to word it:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn has an extra (1) level in front of all currently undamaged levels.
The point is moot now, but I was never claiming that Hardened Defenses adds an extra level to an obstacle. I was simply not sure whether you applied the Hardened Defenses effect before the Lightning Bolt effect (in which case, blam, Lightning Bolt wins), or whether you apply the Lightning Bolt effect before Hardened Defenses (in which case, you still need an extra damage).
There is no mechanical difference between the yellow highlight and the pink highlight.

That was my point.
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byronczimmer wrote:
faucelme wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
As worded:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn requires an extra +1 damage to clear its first uncleared level.

As many of you are trying to word it:
Hardened Defenses: The first obstacle a runner damages on their turn has an extra (1) level in front of all currently undamaged levels.
The point is moot now, but I was never claiming that Hardened Defenses adds an extra level to an obstacle. I was simply not sure whether you applied the Hardened Defenses effect before the Lightning Bolt effect (in which case, blam, Lightning Bolt wins), or whether you apply the Lightning Bolt effect before Hardened Defenses (in which case, you still need an extra damage).
There is no mechanical difference between the yellow highlight and the pink highlight.

That was my point.
I'm not sure why we're still discussing this, since we're now verging into fantasy land. But let's say you had Lightning Bolt and nothing else. Then in the pink case, you could play Lightning Bolt on your hypothetical additional level and one of the existing levels.

In the yellow case, you're not able to to use Lightning Bolt to damage the obstacle at all, because you can't pay for it.

Maybe that's a simple way to think of it. My alternative-universe Hardened Defenses is saying you have to "pay" an extra damage from your damage pool before you can use Lightning Bolt.

Again, that's not what the real-world Hardened Defenses is saying, obviously. Perhaps your version of my version of Hardened Defenses is saying something different, but since I am the final authority on what's going on in my head (that's what the other voices keep claiming), I think I know what I mean!
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Don't make things more complicated than they are.
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