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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Play a card and not do the action or order rss

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Nigel Douglas
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Wynn Vale
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Hi Again

I thought I had seen this somewhere but cant find it again to confirm it.

Can you play an order or action card and then not do the order or action.

For example I play a fire order, don't get the result I want and then play a rout order, but have no units to rout, so therefore I am just discarding this card, to help draw an extra card in the draw phase.

Thanks again
 
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Michael Olsen
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O14.4—Once an Order is given, at least one of the units activated for that Order must physically carry it out
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Michael Olsen
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Actually Rout is different because no units are activated. Therefore for rout you have this rule:

O23.1.ActivationWhen a Rout Order is announced, that player selects a player to be “activated” (either himself or his opponent) provided the chosen player has at least one broken unit in play [3.2]and that player has not been activated for a Recover [O22] or Rout Order previously in the same Turn
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César Moreno
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And if you play "artillery denied" you should also break or eliminate a enemy radio.

As for the actions, every action describes when it can be played. I'd say if you play it, you must actually implement it. No rules at hand anyway.

I guess you can play concealment just before making a defense roll even if your unit sits in a clear hex (cover=0). I don't think you can play "dig in" if all of your units are already in hexes with fortificatiosn. Don't know why you would want to play "hand granades" and decline using the +2... and so on.
 
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Brian S.
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NoMasOvejas wrote:
Don't know why you would want to play "hand granades" and decline using the +2... and so on.
I think the OP was seeing if it was legal to cycle though cards without effect to get better ones with the draw.
 
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Brian S.
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
O14.4—Once an Order is given, at least one of the units activated for that Order must physically carry it out
Using a Movement Point to transfer a weapon from a Movement Order is not sufficient to qualify as carrying out the order either. This is covered in one of the examples in the rulebook.

Edited: added the bold section. blush
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César Moreno
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Vrooman wrote:
NoMasOvejas wrote:
Don't know why you would want to play "hand granades" and decline using the +2... and so on.
I think the OP was seeing if it was legal to cycle though cards without effect to get better ones with the draw.
Yes, that's what I thought. And I don't know if you can play actions without effect. Anyway you still must comply with the prerequisites listed in the card to play the action, so I'd say it's a moot point.
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Joe K
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No. You can cycle cards by playing meaningless actions (eg round trip move beyond range, rout troops in pillbox, etc.). But you can’t “play” a card and then elect not to play it. It’s dump or play.
 
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John McLintock
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As people have already said, when you play an order, at least one activated unit must actually carry out that order. Actions are different though. There is a thread somewhere (I think it's this one) in which Chad said that this doesn't apply to actions. The only thing about actions is that you must satisfy the requirement(s) to play that action (see A24.1). There is nothing in the rules that says you must actually carry out that action. So you can play actions just to get the card out of your hand, assuming that you satisfy the requirements to play that action.

Take Demolitions for example.
Combat Commander wrote:
A31. Demolitions
Demolitions may only be played when the
opponent discards one or more cards due to
“passing” [O15].

Effect—Eliminate one Fortification in any
hex containing a friendly unit.
You could play Demolitions when your opponent discards even if none of your friendly units are in a hex containing a Fortification. And even if one of your friendly units was in a hex containing a Fortification (eg. a beneficial one), you could still play Demolitions and do nothing. See Chad's answer below.
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Chad Jensen
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JMcL63 wrote:
And even if one of your friendly units was in a hex containing a Fortification (eg. a beneficial one), you could still play Demolitions and do nothing.
Well, no. That's not quite what that thread was talking about. That was a case of: if an action *wouldn't* have an effect, could you play it if you met its prerequisite: yes. It wasn't a case of: if the action did something could you choose to not do it: no.

The Demolition action itself doesn't say "you may" so if you play it you must carry out its instructions. (Of course, you could simply choose "a hex containing a friendly unit" that doesn't also happen to contain a Fortification and nothing will happen; but if all your units were in fortifications, you would eliminate one.)
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Russ Williams
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Chad Jensen wrote:
The Demolition action itself doesn't say "you may" so if you play it you must carry out its instructions. (Of course, you could simply choose "a hex containing a friendly unit" that doesn't also happen to contain a Fortification and nothing will happen; but if all your units were in fortifications, you would eliminate one.)
Interesting subtlety with our not totally precise English language (and other "natural" languages)...

"Eliminate one Fortification in any hex containing a friendly unit." arguably is also interpretable to mean that you must eliminate one fortification (in any hex with a friendly unit).

I.e. the English text doesn't explicitly clarify what focus of the selection is. Do you:

* Select a hex with a friendly unit, and then eliminate a fortification there?

or

* Select a fortification and eliminate it; it must be in a hex with a friendly unit?


Compare with e.g. Prisoners of War, which is more explicitly clear: "When this Event occurs, the receiving player must select one of his own broken units [3.2] that is adjacent to or in the same hex as an enemy unit and eliminate it."

This text explicitly says what the focus of selection is:

* you select a broken unit (that is adjacent to an enemy),

as opposed to

* you select an enemy (and eliminate a broken unit adjacent to it -- analogous to how Demolition is meant to be interpreted).


If Prisoners of War were phrased more (ambiguously) like Demolition, it would say something like "Eliminate one of your own broken units adjacent to or in the same hex as an enemy unit" (and then many players would understandably think it's legitimate to pick an enemy unit which has no broken unit next to it).

If Demolition were phrased more (explicitly clearly) like Prisoners of War, it might say e.g. "Select a hex with a friendly unit and eliminate one fortification in it."

---

(This makes me ponder the (in)feasibility of some more formal mathematical/programming language style notation for game rules instead of imperfect English and other "natural" languages...)
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Chad Jensen
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That's a good point, Russ. If I were designing CC today, with a further dozen years of rules-writing experience under my belt, I might reword the Demolitions action to read something like: "Select a hex containing a friendly unit. Eliminate a Fortification there."
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Russ Williams
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Ah well, nothing's perfect, but your games' rules are nonetheless much closer to perfectly written than most games' rules.
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César Moreno
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brgrdemonpart2 wrote:
No. You can cycle cards by playing meaningless actions (eg round trip move beyond range, rout troops in pillbox, etc.
Late to the party as the point being discussed has been clarified already.

But still please notice "move" and "rout" are not actions, but orders.
 
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