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Subject: how devastation works... rss

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rich kimmel
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Hey all

I am trying to understand how devastation works.

Rule 16.3.5 states that '...IF THE LAST BOX IS OCCUPIED...THAT COUNTER AND THE DEVASTATION COUNTER ARE REMOVED FROM PLAY..." then it goes on to say that "...WHENEVER ANY BOX WITH A DEVASTATION MARKER WOULD NORMALLY BE OCCUPIED WOULD BE OCCUPUIED BY AN ECONOMIC COUNTER BOTH THE DEVASTATION COUNTER AND THE MARKER ARE REMOVED FROM PLAY..."

I see on this forum that there is talk of which direction to go when filling. I think Alan posted that it is right to left which makes sense. however, the rules seem unclear to me. is the removal of the economic counter a one time event or is the benefit ongoing? it seems obvious that it is a one time event. but the rules I quote above are redundant in that it mentions twice about removing the devastation marker and economic marker and uses the word WHENEVER which makes the benefit sound ongoing.

as well, posts here on this forum seem to indicate that the devastation marker goes on a BLANK space. so this whole thing confuses me.


thanks and cheers

rich
 
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Russ Williams
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richinhimi wrote:
Hey all

I am trying to understand how devastation works.

Rule 16.3.5 states that '...IF THE LAST BOX IS OCCUPIED...THAT COUNTER AND THE DEVASTATION COUNTER ARE REMOVED FROM PLAY..." then it goes on to say that "...WHENEVER ANY BOX WITH A DEVASTATION MARKER WOULD NORMALLY BE OCCUPIED WOULD BE OCCUPUIED BY AN ECONOMIC COUNTER BOTH THE DEVASTATION COUNTER AND THE MARKER ARE REMOVED FROM PLAY..."

I see on this forum that there is talk of which direction to go when filling. I think Alan posted that it is right to left which makes sense. however, the rules seem unclear to me. is the removal of the economic counter a one time event or is the benefit ongoing? it seems obvious that it is a one time event. but the rules I quote above are redundant in that it mentions twice about removing the devastation marker and economic marker and uses the word WHENEVER which makes the benefit sound ongoing.

as well, posts here on this forum seem to indicate that the devastation marker goes on a BLANK space. so this whole thing confuses me.


thanks and cheers

rich
It goes on the rightmost box which isn't currently devastated. That might be empty, or might have an economic counter.

Devastation markers are played from right to left on the economic track. The example makes this clear, and also tells a bit about interaction between the marker types:

16.3.5 wrote:
For Example: A Devastation counter is placed
in the 5 box of the Soviet Lend-Lease Track
(and that space will therefore take two
Economic counters to fill). A subsequent
occurrence would see a Devastation counter
placed in the 4 box, and so forth.

And read:
16.3.5 wrote:
When a
Devastation counter is placed, if the last
box is occupied by a Soviet
Economic counter, that counter
and the Devastation counter are
removed from play and placed in
the Removed Pieces Holding Box.
That seems pretty clear for what happens when a devastation marker goes onto a non-empty box.

And conversely 7.0 explains what happens when an economic marker goes onto a non-empty box:
7.0 wrote:
If there is a
Devastation counter in that box, both it and
the counter that would have been placed in
that box are removed instead. (In effect, it
takes two counters to fill a devastated box;
one to remove the Devastation counter, and
one more to fill the box.)
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rich kimmel
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thanks.

but I think you made a mistake.

you state the same rule for both empty and filled boxes (i think).
here is what you say...
That seems pretty clear for what happens when a devastation marker goes onto a NON EMPTY BOX.

And CONVERSELY 7.0 explains what happens when an economic marker goes onto a NON EMPTY box

the word CONVERSELY implies there is a difference but you use the word NON EMPTY BOX for both instances.

please clarify

rich
 
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Christian van Someren
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I agree that Devastation is a bit confusing, but this is how I read it:

Choose an economic track:
a) Is there a Soviet marker there? Remove the right-most marker.
b) Is there no Soviet marker there? Place the Devastation marker in the first box. The next time a Soviet marker would be placed on this track, instead discard the Soviet marker and the Devastation marker.


Edit: See below.
 
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Russ Williams
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richinhimi wrote:
thanks.

but I think you made a mistake.

you state the same rule for both empty and filled boxes (i think).
here is what you say...
That seems pretty clear for what happens when a devastation marker goes onto a NON EMPTY BOX.

And CONVERSELY 7.0 explains what happens when an economic marker goes onto a NON EMPTY box

the word CONVERSELY implies there is a difference but you use the word NON EMPTY BOX for both instances.

please clarify
Please read the entire sentences; they are not the same cases, even though both involve non-empty boxes.

One is the case of a DEVASTATION marker going onto a non-empty box (i.e. a box with an economic marker).

The other is the case of an ECONOMIC marker going onto a non-empty box (i.e. a box with a devastation marker).


In case it helps further:

You place economic markers from left to right, and you place devastation markers from right to left. Initially all the boxes are empty, so the markers are simply placed into empty boxes. The two cases above explain what happens if you must place either type of marker into a box occupied by the other type of marker, instead of into an empty box. I.e. what happens if the row of economic markers (growing to the right) and the row of devastation markers (growing to the left) meet somewhere in the middle.
 
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Russ Williams
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Christianv wrote:
I agree that Devastation is a bit confusing, but this is how I read it:

Choose an economic track:
a) Is there a Soviet marker there? Remove the right-most marker.
Are you saying that e.g. if the track has 1 soviet marker and all remaining boxes to the right are empty, you would remove the soviet marker? I don't see how the rules support that. 16.3.5 says only if the last (rightmost) box has an economic marker do you remove it.

Quote:
b) Is there no Soviet marker there? Place the Devastation marker in the first box. The next time a Soviet marker would be placed on this track, instead discard the Soviet marker and the Devastation marker.
I think the intent is clearly to fill the devastation markers in from the right to the left, not starting on the left. The example explicitly mentions putting the first one into box 5, and the next one into box 4, i.e. from rightmost to the left.
 
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Christian van Someren
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After re-reading the rules, I agree with you.

So: Place the Devastation marker in the right-most Lend-lease box which has no Devastation marker in it. If there is a Soviet lend-lease marker in the target box, discard both the Devastation marker and the lend-lease marker. When a lend-lease marker would be placed in a Devastated box, instead discard both the lend-lease and Devastation markers.
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