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Subject: Trading/Selling a DIY copy rss

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Li'l Ronnie Post
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Someone recently asked if I'd be willing to trade or sell my copy of a difficult to find OOP game. Not an uber-expensive grail game, just a bit obscure and hard to find.

What's different is this is not the original game, but a DTP copy I made for myself before trading off the original in case I ever wanted to play it.

This didn't dissuade the interested party, but I feel hesitant in selling or trading the copy (or the digital files I created, as was suggested). Given this is a long OOP game, and not likely to ever be reprinted, what do you folks think. Am I being too cautious, making too big a deal out of it, or not enough? Are homebuilt games ok to trade or sell? I made the copy for myself and because I enjoy the process (I'm a graphic designer by trade), and had never considered the possibility of passing it on.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
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Slyvanian Frog
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them wrote:
Someone recently asked if I'd be willing to trade or sell my copy of a difficult to find OOP game. Not an uber-expensive grail game, just a bit obscure and hard to find.

What's different is this is not the original game, but a DTP copy I made for myself before trading off the original in case I ever wanted to play it.

This didn't dissuade the interested party, but I feel hesitant in selling or trading the copy (or the digital files I created, as was suggested). Given this is a long OOP game, and not likely to ever be reprinted, what do you folks think. Am I being too cautious, making too big a deal out of it, or not enough? Are homebuilt games ok to trade or sell? I made the copy for myself and because I enjoy the process (I'm a graphic designer by trade), and had never considered the possibility of passing it on.

Thanks for your thoughts.


You already took the first step down the road when you sold the original but made a copy for yourself before doing so.

Since you already made money off of someone else's intellectual property, I don't see why you wouldn't do so again.
 
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Snowball
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SlyFrog wrote:
[

You already took the first step down the road when you sold the original but made a copy for yourself before doing so.


Even though I am no copyright crusader, I share that opinion.
Making a copy for yourself of an OOP game is mabe illegal but not immoral.
Making a copy if you have an original, and then selling the original is both.
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Richard Panek
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Antonio Chavez
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Don't listen to the copyright cops here.

The question here is: WHo are you hurting?

The other guy? No, he knows what he's getting.

The copyright holder? No. He's not losing any sales, as he's no longer offering the product.

On the other hand, if you refuse to sell it on "moral" grounds, you're hurting yourself, hurting the guy who wants to play an otherwise impossible to get game, and helping... well, helping nobody that I can see.

Plus, one thing I have learned is not to ask this kind of question here. You'll be called nasty names by several persons with nothing better to do. Pay them no mind.
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Marshall Miller
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Want my opinion? I say, the best situation is trading a DIY for a DIY. Somehow it seems better. Perhaps the person could trade you a service...
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Tim Maloney
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Mr.Baggins wrote:
Don't listen to the copyright cops here.

The question here is: WHo are you hurting?

The other guy? No, he knows what he's getting.

The copyright holder? No. He's not losing any sales, as he's no longer offering the product.

On the other hand, if you refuse to sell it on "moral" grounds, you're hurting yourself, hurting the guy who wants to play an otherwise impossible to get game, and helping... well, helping nobody that I can see.

Plus, one thing I have learned is not to ask this kind of question here. You'll be called nasty names by several persons with nothing better to do. Pay them no mind.


Amen.
 
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Ron K
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'80' maxlength='250'> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="right"><b>Avatar OverText</b></td> <td width="85%"> <input type="text" name="overtext[avatar]" value="Train Game anyone?
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Trade=Gift=OK as this does not reasonably constitute a sale.
 
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Melissa
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I think your post shows that you are not entirely comfortable with the idea of trading your DIY copy.

I don't think I would be, either.

Give it away if you must, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable trading (ie, getting something of value for) a DIY copy.
 
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Ernesto Cabrera
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For more information about Intellectual Property:

www.wipo.org (world intelectual property organization)

Maybe you can find it on Patent, but I'm not sure if its that or Copyright...

The point is most of them end in 20~ years...
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Ron K
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'80' maxlength='250'> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="right"><b>Avatar OverText</b></td> <td width="85%"> <input type="text" name="overtext[avatar]" value="Train Game anyone?
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Ripe for the prize table
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Bryn Davies
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I am not a lawyer ( yet ) and am almost certainly not in your jurisdiction, but if you made entirely new art assets ( avoid copyright ) etc and a new name ( avoid trademark ) for your DIY copy, it should be fine. While the rulebook would be protected by copyright, the rules themselves ( as a process ) shouldn't be ( although they could conceivably be covered by a patent ).

The fact that the product is no longer for sale sadly does not legally change anything... this is sort of related in a roundabout way to the "orphan works problem".

If you wish to obtain strict legal compliance, I would get in touch with the copyright holder of the game if possible, and ask them to license you to produce a new copy. Failing that, I would provide an original document describing how to assemble a new copy of the game and how it is played.

As for what you think is morally right or wrong, I can't say. You'll have to judge that for yourself.
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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Sometimes all you have to do is say something out loud for it to become more clear.

I guess I just wasn't applying what I already knew about copyright issues to this context. As soon as I started thinking about it, I started wondering why I'd asked.

Fair Use or Educational purposes don't really apply here. Copyright expiration might (it's an an old game), but my memory is that 20 years might not be enough.

The point is that even if it's out of print, someone else owns the rights to it. I may not feel I am harming anyone (and I certainly didn't), but it's still not exactly my choice. Extenuating circumstances? Sure - there's a bunch. Unusual efforts had already been made to contact the copyright holder to no avail. My copy was made primarily for archival & aesthetic purposes - not to sell, trade, or even primarily to play. I traded the original off in the first place because of the enthusiasm of the folks who were looking for it - they were going to *play* it. Then I thought geez, I'll never see this again, I'll make a copy so I can look at it later. Of course, then I got into the project and actually made a working copy because I'm a graphic geek.

There's certainly no immediate or direct harm to the copyright holder if he still holds it and is still alive. Realistically, the advice to trade the copy, give it as a prize, etc, is pretty reasonable.

All that said, it still boils down to someone else owning the rights - and while in practice, this whole thing is likely a complete non-issue (as has been suggested), ultimately it's not my place to decide that. It may well be (and probably is) absolutely inconsequential. But again, it's not my place. You own the copyright, it's yours - and you don't have to be reasonable about it either (although most people are). Having been a professional musician, I feel similarly about music, but for some reason just didn't quite make the immediate leap to games. Upon reflection and posting, I did.

In practice, I personally wouldn't point too many fingers at someone else in this situation, but I'm not comfortable with it for myself. So I've figured out the answer to my question, and I'll be acting accordingly.

Quote:
Since you already made money off of someone else's intellectual property, I don't see why you wouldn't do so again.

If you'll read my original post, you'll find nothing was sold and no money was made. My experience has been that people who are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues usually manage to discuss them without sounding quite so self-righteous and snotty.
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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Mr.Baggins wrote:
Plus, one thing I have learned is not to ask this kind of question here. You'll be called nasty names by several persons with nothing better to do. Pay them no mind.

No worries.

By the way, thanks everyone for taking the time to share their reactions!
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(The Artist formerly known as) Arnest R
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If the art is yours, there is no applicable copyright.
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Daniel Danzer
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At ebay.com, there are over 500 000 books on sale. I don`t know, how much are OOP or still available, but I don`t think, this is all illegal, even if the sellers have read the book before and STEAL the intellectual property this way, now MAKING MONEY out of it.

If your DIY-copy is beautiful and well made, you also sell a work you have done with your hand, not only the "game".

It would be intersting, what game it is or nearer circumstances (how old, etc.). If there still is a copyright holder, it would be nice to contact him, but ...

People, don`t forget: The laws we are talking about are to provide illegal copy-making for making LOT of money by industries etc., and not really suitable for ONE individual copy!

Nobody would accuse me for doing a handwritten copy of some short novel and sell it to somebody who is fond of the text and doesn`t care, if it`s done by myself. OOP or not.

Nobody.
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them wrote:
There's certainly no immediate or direct harm to the copyright holder if he still holds it and is still alive. Realistically, the advice to trade the copy, give it as a prize, etc, is pretty reasonable.

All that said, it still boils down to someone else owning the rights - and while in practice, this whole thing is likely a complete non-issue (as has been suggested), ultimately it's not my place to decide that. It may well be (and probably is) absolutely inconsequential. But again, it's not my place. You own the copyright, it's yours - and you don't have to be reasonable about it either (although most people are). Having been a professional musician, I feel similarly about music, but for some reason just didn't quite make the immediate leap to games. Upon reflection and posting, I did.



Good point. You should make a bunch of copies and either sell them or trade them for things you want. You analysis above allows that too, so why not do it? After all, we all know that if you are not paid in cash, it means you've received nothing of value and it is okay.

In practice, I personally wouldn't point too many fingers at someone else in this situation, but I'm not comfortable with it for myself. So I've figured out the answer to my question, and I'll be acting accordingly.

Quote:
If you'll read my original post, you'll find nothing was sold and no money was made. My experience has been that people who are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues usually manage to discuss them without sounding quite so self-righteous and snotty.


My experience is that many people who say they are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues really want people to help assuage their guilt for doing something wrong.

I'm glad you got what you wanted out of this thread.
 
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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SlyFrog wrote:
them wrote:
There's certainly no immediate or direct harm to the copyright holder if he still holds it and is still alive. Realistically, the advice to trade the copy, give it as a prize, etc, is pretty reasonable.

All that said, it still boils down to someone else owning the rights - and while in practice, this whole thing is likely a complete non-issue (as has been suggested), ultimately it's not my place to decide that. It may well be (and probably is) absolutely inconsequential. But again, it's not my place. You own the copyright, it's yours - and you don't have to be reasonable about it either (although most people are). Having been a professional musician, I feel similarly about music, but for some reason just didn't quite make the immediate leap to games. Upon reflection and posting, I did.



Good point. You should make a bunch of copies and either sell them or trade them for things you want. You analysis above allows that too, so why not do it? After all, we all know that if you are not paid in cash, it means you've received nothing of value and it is okay.

Did you actually read what you've quoted?

Quote:
My experience is that many people who say they are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues really want people to help assuage their guilt for doing something wrong.

I've observed the same from time to time. It just wasn't as relevant as the observation I've offered.

Quote:
I'm glad you got what you wanted out of this thread.

Thank you. Perhaps you might go back and read it.

*ahem*

Again, thank you to everyone who has contributed. There have been some good points made here, and I appreciate the viewpoints.
 
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them wrote:
Thank you. Perhaps you might go back and read it.

*ahem*

Again, thank you to everyone who has contributed. There have been some good points made here, and I appreciate the viewpoints.


Your combination of attempting to appear innocent and above the fray, accusing others of being self-righteous and snotty is utterly hilarious in light of your condescension and patronizing tone.

If the only advice you want it, "Go do it, it's okay, it's not wrong," just say so up front and be done with it.

But stop being a condescending prick about it when people point out that you are taking someone's IP and making a profit off of it.
 
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Scott Kinsey
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I think maybe you should change your name to Slyvanian Troll.
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Eric
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them wrote:

Quote:
Since you already made money off of someone else's intellectual property, I don't see why you wouldn't do so again.

If you'll read my original post, you'll find nothing was sold and no money was made. My experience has been that people who are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues usually manage to discuss them without sounding quite so self-righteous and snotty.


I think that comment was about making money by selling your original copy and keeping the copy you've made.
 
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Aljovin wrote:
them wrote:

Quote:
Since you already made money off of someone else's intellectual property, I don't see why you wouldn't do so again.

If you'll read my original post, you'll find nothing was sold and no money was made. My experience has been that people who are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues usually manage to discuss them without sounding quite so self-righteous and snotty.


I think that comment was about making money by selling your original copy and keeping the copy you've made.


It was. It was also about what a joke it is to "trade" something (by definition, receiving value in exchange) and claim that because you are not getting money, it is not a problem.

If you are trading for something you would otherwise have to spend money to acquire, it is the equivalent of getting that money. Being cute and suggesting that you are picking up games that might otherwise cost hundreds of dollars (am I allowed to "trade" for Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, etc., because I'm not getting money) is just disingenuous.
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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Aljovin wrote:
them wrote:

Quote:
Since you already made money off of someone else's intellectual property, I don't see why you wouldn't do so again.

If you'll read my original post, you'll find nothing was sold and no money was made. My experience has been that people who are actually interested in meaningful conversations about ethical issues usually manage to discuss them without sounding quite so self-righteous and snotty.


I think that comment was about making money by selling your original copy and keeping the copy you've made.

Thanks, I did eventually figure that out. It'd be picking nits to point out I didn't sell the original copy, because the point is that products changed hands even if money didn't.
 
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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SlyFrog wrote:
It was also about what a joke it is to "trade" something (by definition, receiving value in exchange) and claim that because you are not getting money, it is not a problem.

Is anyone besides the trolling pinhead here having a problem deciphering where I ended up on this question?
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them wrote:
SlyFrog wrote:
It was also about what a joke it is to "trade" something (by definition, receiving value in exchange) and claim that because you are not getting money, it is not a problem.

Is anyone besides the trolling pinhead here having a problem deciphering where I ended up on this question?


Perhaps you should read what I read. Once again, casting stones regarding others being an idiot is fruitful only if you actually get it yourself. You don't. I never said you actually decided to make the trade.

Or as you might say, learn to read.
 
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