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B-17 Flying Fortress Leader» Forums » General
Subject: GAme that collect dust or returns alot on table? 
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After a few hrs on the forum i have imagined that most writers are either new players or old players that now got it shelved, or players that "havent play past first campaign yet" even they purchased game 3 yrs ago.
SO. Makes me wonder, is this a game that you need the novelty in order for the arousal to be sustained or is it acually a game that you wear down and keep coming back to?
I bought Tiger Leader some time ago and was totally vexed with it, therefore i am afraid same thing may happen here.
I do enjoy TFT and i have read numerous books about this topic.
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If this game came out ten years ago, I'd be playing it all the time - over and over. It's that good.
The problem is that given the state of the hobby today, I also have many other games which are just as good, or close. And since I play a themed game depending on my mood, and since I own many games which I haven't played yet, it doesn't make sense to keep coming back to 'B-17 Leader' at the sake of the others.
So like with ALL GOOD GAMES, they are each a victim of the success of the hobby. There are simply too many other games to explore and play, to dedicate too much of our precious leisure time to only one title. This is the ONLY reason that B-17 sits on my shelf longer than it otherwise would.
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- I have both, Thunderbolt FL and B-17 FL, and the same problem that has Barry. So, I would like to play more often to a FL game, but time is a tyrant. My opinion about your problem is that I enjoyed more and more B-17 respect Thunderbolt, because I 'feel' the period more interesting. If you have my sensations, then purchase B-17, because is a very good game - not a masterpiece, but the replay value is very high, and is fun and challenging.
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Hi Ola, I liked it ... a lot. So I agree with the above to a degree. However, I also got frustrated with it regarding the CG ... some rules I would need to tweak to make it playable for me. Seems a bit off, especially with the Theater movement.
When I get time, I will certainly hit this again.
Doc
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Its certainly one I enjoy. But recently I have seen Corsair Leader get a bit more play. Partly because Corsair is newer and also partly as I have found the playtime of B17 to be a bit prohibitive. Maybe I am slow at playing but it normally takes me between 2-3 hours to do a single month. Until recently I have been unable to leave a game setup.
However that said, I now do have a bit more space so should be able to leave it set up. and play it in smaller runs. Personally I do prefer to play for a shorter time, so shorter games have seen my table more.
That being said, I do always enjoy playing B17, but as others have said, time is limited and there is plenty of amazing games to play.
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Dr Brian wrote:Hi Ola, I liked it ... a lot. So I agree with the above to a degree. However, I also got frustrated with it regarding the CG ... some rules I would need to tweak to make it playable for me. Seems a bit off, especially with the Theater movement.What rules in particulair do you think needs tweaking?
When I get time, I will certainly hit this again.
Doc
Thanks all for informative replies! I think this is the game for me then. I am already thinking of some sort of incorporation with TFT. Or atleast soem sort of tour of duty for the individual planes. I have played the computer game Bombing the reich by matrixgames for many years, and this might be something for me even if it is much shorter and simplier. I guess there are no entire-war campaign included by default? (i noticed a gap in time between campaigns, like oct43'-may 44' or such. This is the phase of the era i find most intruiging, when many new crews arrived to get the hell kicked out of them, only to be 'saved' by bad weather during the winter, even if the 8th flew almost every day.
Cheers!
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- Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:06 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
- Posted Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:04 pm
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- Brian intends that the game has not a war campaign well balanced: the game has a lot of campaigns, but shorter, but many of us would like to play a very long campaign. Indeed, it is not so simple tweak and improve this game, like many others of course.
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- There is an entire war campaign sheet posted on the file section here.
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Game bought
Thanks guys- Hopefully i wil not need to spam the forum with a ton of newbie questions within a few days hehe 
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Exactly, the grand campaign needs some tweaking due to the theater rules ... and I think the "secondary targets" should be actually the "primary targets" otherwise the CG becomes all about airfields and ac production.
Doc
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If you get the 2nd Edition of the game (2nd Edition is on the front of the box), then you have the latest rules and errata. Have fun!
Dean
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Dr Brian wrote:Exactly, the grand campaign needs some tweaking due to the theater rules ... and I think the "secondary targets" should be actually the "primary targets" otherwise the CG becomes all about airfields and ac production.The fix for the longer Campaigns for the theater track is to not add theater modifiers for Luftwaffe Squadrons allocated to that theater. Normally you would subtract 1 from the die roll for each Luftwaffe Squadron when rolling for the theater advancement.
Doc
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:Hmmm .... I like that. :-)Dr Brian wrote:Exactly, the grand campaign needs some tweaking due to the theater rules ... and I think the "secondary targets" should be actually the "primary targets" otherwise the CG becomes all about airfields and ac production.The fix for the longer Campaigns for the theater track is to not add theater modifiers for Luftwaffe Squadrons allocated to that theater. Normally you would subtract 1 from the die roll for each Luftwaffe Squadron when rolling for the theater advancement.
Doc
Now I need to consider the Secondary targets as more primary.
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Long term theatre campaign fix...
OMG! Why didn't I go looking for that, or see this months ago. I'm playing the full campaign, and, given work commitments and my own slow play style, it's August 1944 in the game - and I'm ALMOST a year with it occupying my spare desk.
The Gods of Random were kind to me in the Mediterranean and we quickly recaptured Africa. The poor Russians however once broke out to Kiev, but were very quickly pushed back and re-beseiged in Stalingrad.
The US has made it to Paris (with some fortuitous rolls), but discovered a taste for the local wine, and, well, I think the locals themselves!
Will make that campaign adjustment going forward. With all the Commander changes, I'm now facing SEVEN active factories. The Germans have their own supply problems (frequently running out of squadron markers!)
Thanks!
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- What would be the final vp total for a grand campaign? Or the goal for it. I'm playing one now.
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- No game returns a lot to my table unfortunately, because I usually need it for work, but for me (emphasis on me) this is certainly a keeper, and the best of DVG's designs.
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diskgolfdemigod wrote:What would be the final vp total for a grand campaign? Or the goal for it. I'm playing one now.EVALUATION
Great: 300+ Good: 250-299 Adequate: 200-249 Poor: 150-199 Dismal: 149-
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- Thanks
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CdnBulldog wrote:With all the Commander changes, I'm now facing SEVEN active factories.This was also a problem in the long campaign. I came up with a method that kept a maximum # and minimum # of factories. That's the only way to make the long campaign not get crazy and work.
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"I'm thinking it may be appropriate to have a minimum number of factories (in each year). Then allow the leaders to build as drawn. However, if anything above that year's minimum is destroyed, they don't come back unless a leader is drawn again.
For example,
1942 = 3
1943 = 3
1944 = 4
1945 = 5
(obviously tweak based on historical data, too).
It's 1944 and there are 6 factories on map ... and the US smashes the factories down to 2. So the next month, 2 get rebuilt. And if any leaders ability to construct a factory is drawn ... add another."
Do mean this from another post you did?
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I'm playing the online full Campaign and it started with 3 Factories.
After that, I was just "lucky".
To be honest however, the game isn't supposed to be easy and it actually pretty self-managing. I decided that whenever I run out of LW Sqn chits, this is just a reflection of resource and supply issues in the Reich. There were a few months where Germany's construction demand could not be fulfilled.
What will actually happen with the relaxation of squadrons to the other fronts is that more squadrons will end up constructed in the ETO (just because they have chits that used to be tied up on the other theatre trackers), but that's ok.
Honestly, the balanced mechanics of this game are amazing. I've made a few house rules around squadron and allied commander availability, but overall it's stunning (and terrifyingly realistic and true to history - mostly).
I AM finding a HUGE buildup of LW squadrons in NW France. This is because they're constructed there, then they're too far from "core" to be relocated, and I just haven't drawn the mission cards to justify kicking the hornet's nest. Truthfully though, one drawn secondary mission card would change all that.
I'll see about posting a picture of my board.
EDIT: Done. Pic here: https://boardgamegeek.com/images/user/90884
I've found the use of coloured markers very useful for map and target assessment.
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- Last edited Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:22 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
- Posted Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:02 pm
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- I use block markers that came with Pavlov's House.
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diskgolfdemigod wrote:"I'm thinking it may be appropriate to have a minimum number of factories (in each year). Then allow the leaders to build as drawn. However, if anything above that year's minimum is destroyed, they don't come back unless a leader is drawn again.That is exactly how I proposed it.
For example,
1942 = 3
1943 = 3
1944 = 4
1945 = 5
(obviously tweak based on historical data, too).
It's 1944 and there are 6 factories on map ... and the US smashes the factories down to 2. So the next month, 2 get rebuilt. And if any leaders ability to construct a factory is drawn ... add another."
Do mean this from another post you did?
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diskgolfdemigod wrote:"I'm thinking it may be appropriate to have a minimum number of factories (in each year). Then allow the leaders to build as drawn.I updated the Campaign sheet to limit new factories to one a year. Maybe I should use maximum factories per year as you recommend, something like:
1942 = 3
1943 = 3
1944 = 4
1945 = 5
1942 - 3
1943 - 4
1944 - 4
1945 - 5
1943 was a tough year for the USAAF.
I'll update the Campaign sheet.
Dean
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