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Subject: USS Hornet CV-8 Found rss

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Saxon 357
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-hornet-wreckage-world-war-t...

I had a Grand Uncle that was a Deck Ape on her. He had just transfered off the CV-3 Saratoga (laid up by a Torpedo) to the Hornet right before Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. (edited for: ape).

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    In the middle, on the bottom row. How hard is that?

    On a more serious note, a guy signed that ship out during the war, and his family is on the hook for paying for it until someone signs it back in. I bet they're very happy about this turn of events.
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Rick Thompson
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saxon357 wrote:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-hornet-wreckage-world-war-t...

I had a Grand Uncle that was a Deck Snipe on her. He had just transfered off the CV-3 Saratoga (laid up by a Torpedo) to the Hornet right before Battle of Santa Cruz Islands.

Very cool that she’s been found.
But... what the hell is a Deck Snipe? In my years as a sailor, we had Deck Apes who did all the dirty work topside and Snipes, who only raised their heads out of the Engine Room when it was chowtime or we hit a Liberty port. Mind you, I was a Destroyer sailor, so maybe that is a Carrier term, but sounds like a mixed metaphor to my ears.
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Saxon 357
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You are right. It's Deck Ape. I had a Navy buddy talking to me as I was typing it, that was a "Bilge Turd" (Snipe) on an old Frigate. Distracting Rats.
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Stephen Brophy
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The wreck of the Japanese battleship HIEI has also recently been discovered.
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Barry Kendall
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It's interesting to me that both "Hornet" and "Yorktown" have been found upright on the bottom, while it seems battleships are more often upside-down.

I wonder if that open hangar deck area on the US carriers, at least, somehow provided a stabilizing factor as the ship descended through the water to reach bottom.

Has anyone ever found the "Ark Royal"? If I recall, she had a really bad list before going down. Also she did not have the open hangar deck design American carriers featured (this was in part to allow the entire air group to warm up their radial engines and launch in a shorter period of time; those radials needed about twenty minutes' time to warm enough for maximum power for takeoffs).

I also wonder about the wrecks of "Akagi" and "Kaga" for similar reasons.

The discoveries of these legendary vessels is fascinating.
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Joeseph McCarthy
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It really gives us an idea of how sophisticated underwater search technology has become. The fact that so many famous wrecks have been discovered in the deep ocean demonstrates a level of capability that could only have been dreamed about when I was in college.
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Jeroen van der Valk
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Just read this, amazing discovery!
As stated, more and more is being found, recently the Indianapolis.
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Dan The Man
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Barry Kendall wrote:
I also wonder about the wrecks of "Akagi" and "Kaga" for similar reasons.

The discoveries of these legendary vessels is fascinating.
Kaga and Akagi were burned out hulks that were scuttled by torpedo, so that might be interesting in itself.

Remember, all that deck machinery on BBS should have a material effect on the orientation. Titanic went down topside up.

Edit: fighting against the evils of autocorrect.
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Dan The Man
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Mogadeet wrote:
It really gives us an idea of how sophisticated underwater search technology has become. The fact that so many famous wrecks have been discovered in the deep ocean demonstrates a level of capability that could only have been dreamed about when I was in college.
True, combined with remarkable location determination and record-keeping in the pre-GPS navies.
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John Robinson
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Barry Kendall wrote:


Has anyone ever found the "Ark Royal"? If I recall, she had a really bad list before going down. Also she did not have the open hangar deck design American carriers featured (this was in part to allow the entire air group to warm up their radial engines and launch in a shorter period of time; those radials needed about twenty minutes' time to warm enough for maximum power for takeoffs).


The discoveries of these legendary vessels is fascinating.
Yes she has been found

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2585887.stm
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Abe Delnore
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Mogadeet wrote:
The fact that so many famous wrecks have been discovered in the deep ocean demonstrates a level of capability that could only have been dreamed about when I was in college.
It was dreamed about, though.

The Titanic being not just found but raised and restored was a plot point in two 1976 novels. Everyone remembers Clive Cussler, Raise the Titanic. A raised Titanic is also mentioned offhandedly in Arthur C. Clark, Imperial Earth.

Around the same time, kids in Japan were watching Space Cruiser Yamato, which featured the eponymous battleship turned into a spacefaring vessel. On the other hand, finding the ship wasn't very hard since aliens had evaporated the Earth's oceans.
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Saxon 357
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https://youtu.be/-K-V_ah6IIs

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1952214/wreck-uss-lexin...

Older thread (of several) about Warship Discoveries. Lady Lex.

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Hans Korting
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I hope that she, and the men that lost their lives on her, will be respected...
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Curtis Kitchens
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HansK wrote:
I hope that she, and the men that lost their lives on her, will be respected...
This is always interesting. When has an appropriate time passed before it's ok to "grave dig" so to speak. We do it all the time for ancient peoples and now I'm starting to see forensic studies on American Civil War graves etc.. Is there an established time in archeology? Or do we just wing it?
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Paul Thompson
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Texas Time Traveler wrote:
HansK wrote:
I hope that she, and the men that lost their lives on her, will be respected...
This is always interesting. When has an appropriate time passed before it's ok to "grave dig" so to speak. We do it all the time for ancient peoples and now I'm starting to see forensic studies on American Civil War graves etc.. Is there an established time in archeology? Or do we just wing it?
It's possible that HansK is more thinking about the incidents last year where Dutch and RN wrecks have been demolished in order to salavage the metal or just ye old souviner hunters.

Both of which are quite different from archeological research, where at least care is general taken with any human remains, the groups invovled in the Salvaging/Souviner hunting rarely have such cares.

I will admit my first thought was I hope she is deep enough that it won't be an issue.
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Hans Korting
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Well, I was not only thinking of the Dutch and British ships that disappeared, but also the random looting of the wrecks.

I am not against the USN raising the ship's bell, for example, to display this at one of her museums. I am against the souvenir hunters and people that do this if out of gain and profit.
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Bill Eldard
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Texas Time Traveler wrote:
HansK wrote:
I hope that she, and the men that lost their lives on her, will be respected...
This is always interesting. When has an appropriate time passed before it's ok to "grave dig" so to speak. We do it all the time for ancient peoples and now I'm starting to see forensic studies on American Civil War graves etc.. Is there an established time in archeology? Or do we just wing it?
Many nations regard the wrecks of their lost warships as eternal national cemetaries, and frown on the pilfering of human remains and personal belongings.

20-30 years ago, there was a story about commercial scuba diving tours exploring a sunken U-boat in 50 ft of water off the coast of North Carolina. Before the tours began, much had been salvaged and pilfered from the sub, including bones of U-boat sailors sold in seaside souvenir shops. The Federal Republic of Germany issued a formal protest, and after USN EOD divers assessed that a torpedo lodged in one of the tubes could be too unstable to risk disarming and removal, the Coast Guard established a maritime warning regarding diving in the area. I don't know what the status is today.

I've just this week finished Lisle A. Rose's The Ship That Held the Line, which covers the short history of USS Hornet from her commissioning just before Pearl Harbor to her loss during the Battle of Santa Cruz in 1942. It's an excellent book (approx 278 pages). With several of her leaders removed after Midway, she became a much more efficient and effective ship by the time Santa Cruz came around, and was better prepared than USS Enterprise, which had lost much of its battle experience since Midway.

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Abe Delnore
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What to do with these sunken vessels is an interesting question and more complicated than it might appear.

While it is tempting to say that decency and tradition absolutely require leaving them as places of eternal rest, this is contradicted by many navies' actual practice of salvaging accessible wrecks and either scrapping them or and returning them to service.

Should unauthorized scrappers pillage these vessels? Of course not. On the other hand, should there be sensitive and deliberate reuse of appropriate parts, not just for memorial purposes but perhaps also for commercial ones? That is not outside the realm of reasonable discussion.

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Bill Eldard
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Abe Delnore wrote:
What to do with these sunken vessels is an interesting question and more complicated than it might appear.

While it is tempting to say that decency and tradition absolutely require leaving them as places of eternal rest, this is contradicted by many navies' actual practice of salvaging accessible wrecks and either scrapping them or and returning them to service.

Should unauthorized scrappers pillage these vessels? Of course not. On the other hand, should there be sensitive and deliberate reuse of appropriate parts, not just for memorial purposes but perhaps also for commercial ones? That is not outside the realm of reasonable discussion.
Museums display human remains from antiquity with far less concern over the disturbing of the sites and human remains. Finding a mummified corpse today is a scientific bonanza, allowing us to examine and test those remains to learn more about our distant ancestors.

It appears that social sensitivities to the salvaging/looting (take your pick) of gravesites are stronger the closer chronologically those sites are to our time. The concern over 20th Century military gravesites is greater because the human remains are only a couple of generations removed from us; images of those people when they were alive have been captured in documentary films and photos, and may have known their contemporaries in our own lives. We're more connected emotionally. For example, reading The Ship That Held the Line was more meaningful for me because beyond my lifelong fascination with WW2 history (and my dad's WW2 Army), I've served on a modern aircraft carrier, so the author's detailed descriptions of shipboard life and personalities welded a closer bond between them and me that I would not have had otherwise. Someday, there will be no more aircraft carriers, and thus a diminishing number of folks with that experience through which to connect.

On a side note, I have visited the USS Arizona Memorial Site at Pearl Harbor three times, and each time it is a very solemn -- almost haunting -- experience for me that I'm sure later generations are less likely to sense. Watching the oil still seeping from its decaying fuel bunkers and the realization of the 1,000+ sailors entombed in her hull affects me deeply, but I doubt that most of my generation feels that same depth of emotion, and expect there will be fewer the farther time marches on.

I imagine that in 200+ years, historians and archaeologists will feel less connected to the wreck of the USS Hornet and less sensitive to what they remove from her in the name of science and the yearning for a historical accuracy. I'm not going to pass judgment on them. I do expect that they will contact the families of the lost crewmen. We now have better technology for personal identification, so if remains are recovered and identified, they should be buried on land or at sea, or cremated as their families so desire.
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Abe Delnore
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Eldard wrote:
It appears that social sensitivities to the salvaging/looting (take your pick) of gravesites are stronger the closer chronologically those sites are to our time. The concern over 20th Century military gravesites is greater because the human remains are only a couple of generations removed from us; images of those people when they were alive have been captured in documentary films and photos, and may have known their contemporaries in our own lives. We're more connected emotionally. For example, reading The Ship That Held the Line was more meaningful for me because beyond my lifelong fascination with WW2 history (and my dad's WW2 Army), I've served on a modern aircraft carrier, so the author's detailed descriptions of shipboard life and personalities welded a closer bond between them and me that I would not have had otherwise. Someday, there will be no more aircraft carriers, and thus a diminishing number of folks with that experience through which to connect.

On a side note, I have visited the USS Arizona Memorial Site at Pearl Harbor three times, and each time it is a very solemn -- almost haunting -- experience for me that I'm sure later generations are less likely to sense. Watching the oil still seeping from its decaying fuel bunkers and the realization of the 1,000+ sailors entombed in her hull affects me deeply, but I doubt that most of my generation feels that same depth of emotion, and expect there will be fewer the farther time marches on.
I think that reluctance to disturb the shipwrecks because they are seen as graves actually increases over time and become irresistible after the vessel has lain on the bottom unsalvaged for decades. If a vessel were to sink where it could be salvaged today then there would be immense pressure to raise the ship and recover the bodies.

That is why I pointed to actual past practice. When submarines were lost with significant loss of life in the 1920s and 30s, they were, when possible, salvaged and either sold for scrapping (e.g., USS S-51, HMS Truculent), returned to service (e.g., HMS A1, HMS E41, USS S-4, USS Squalus/Sailfish, HMS Thetis/Thunderbolt, HMS Untamed/Vitality), or disposed of as targets (e.g., HMS A3, HMS Sidon). This process involved removing clearly identifiable remains of men who'd been dead for a year or less.

Likewise, the USS Arizona Memorial is a moving location, but its existence is something of a historical accident. If it had been possible to raise and restore that vessel to service then surely that is exactly what would have been done, as happened with the other Battleship Row Pearl Harbor victims. (There was an attempt to restore USS Utah but it failed.) Only because USS Arizona was so thoroughly destroyed was she left in place. That process entailed removing significant parts of her structure, some of which were reused or processed as scrap metal.

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I imagine that in 200+ years, historians and archaeologists will feel less connected to the wreck of the USS Hornet and less sensitive to what they remove from her in the name of science and the yearning for a historical accuracy. I'm not going to pass judgment on them. I do expect that they will contact the families of the lost crewmen. We now have better technology for personal identification, so if remains are recovered and identified, they should be buried on land or at sea, or cremated as their families so desire.
We don't have much experience with shipwrecks in very deep water, but it may be the case that there are no identifiable human remains at the wreck site now. It also seems likely 20th-century wreck sites will be very hard to identify 200 years from now. RMS Titanic is basically being eaten: not only are the deep sea creatures that consume any type of organic material, but there are also bacteria that eat iron and turn it into the stalactite-like formations we see on wrecks. If the same process is occurring on other wrecks--which haven't been as well studied--then they may be gone within decades.
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