Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm still trying to balance my game to bring back the fun of the base, but with some of the expansion additions. The Treachery Deck is clogging up my games, as mentioned in another post, the Cylon Fleet board has tipped favour to revealed Cylons and now I'm considering removing the Mutineer from any sessions that the play count recommends there be one.

With the Mutineer mechanic, the amount of times players were in and out of the brig were exhausting. I like the idea, but unless I increase the hand limit before a brigging occurs, I'm just going to remove it altogether.

Does anyone know what impact this will have, if any, to the balance?

Also, any other off-topic tips on the things I mentioned above are welcome.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mutineer is not the same as Mutiny.

You can have Mutiny without Mutineer.

To "fix" Cylon Fleet Board with Daybreak we shuffle half of Pegasus treachery in. It reduces "gaming the CFB" by humans and also reduces the number of Mutiny cards distributed due to skill checks. (Also treachery-floods of destiny due to dilution of A Better Machine. We have also removed one.)

Reckless skill checks will be more brutal though, and is one tool for hidden cylons to use.

Note that dealing Mutiny is also a tool to brig suspected and soft-revealed cylons.

(If you really mean Mutineer, we prefer Cylon Leader with Motives.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
a1bert confirmed what I was thinking...

Mutiny is aka "Mutiny card". That deck of 21 cards that's a part of core Daybreak exp. where if you ever get a hand of 2 of them, you're brigged.

.

Mutineer is a card is a Loyalty card that replaces the Sympathetic Cylon Sympathizer (former from Pegasus, latter from base game) in certain player counts.

Mutr. OR CL in 4p and 6p games.
Both or neither in 5p games
Both are required in 7p games.

Mutr.'s special b/c he gets brigged when he has a hand of 3 Mutiny cards, amongst other rules.

.

if too many people are getting brigged, then are you managing your Mutiny card? Either play it, or see what options there are at C1. Mutiny does force you to sink an extra action or more to properly deal with it.

With early CFB reveals, you tend to get that since revealing before it was even more constrained.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah, correct, I meant the Mutiny cards altogether. How often have people found they get brigged when these cards are in play? Perhaps I had a bad run, but during the last session they became a highly irritating distraction and caused multiple briggings. Perhaps I could increase the hand limit to three for non-Mutineers?

Also, I did hear about diluting the Treachery Deck and that sounds brilliant - though yet to try it out!

A suggestion was to remove the actions on the CFB, as a home-rule. Seems a shame but I might give it a go. Afterall, I want revealed Cylons to struggle.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The "roll for tracks" location on the CFB is probably the only basestar location you need to remove to discourage early reveals.

Our group doesn't usually go for early reveals because the humans become much more efficient dealing with everything (including getting rid of Mutiny cards). We also play a lot of 4-player games (with Cylon Leader Motives).

The amount of mutiny cards in a game varies. Sometimes there isn't any at all, sometimes a lot. Usually players do get rid of them before getting brigged - unless they are really good and thus should be saved, at the threat of the brig, but sometimes Cylon Leader needs someone in the brig to be on the human side.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which one is the 'Roll for Tracks', sorry? Is that the one to advance the pursuing fleet?

Unfortunately, I don't play with a steady group so the humans have never been capable of dealing with threats, whether they see them coming or not, in our sessions. Maybe we just had a bad spin this time around.

Have you guys all tried diluting the Treachery Deck? Getting off-point a little, but if that method works to keep the game flowing then I think that would be the single most powerful change I could incorporate into future sessions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Daybreak assumes you play with cylon attack cards, so Daybreak treachery doesn't work as intended / well with CFB. Our solution of adding half of Pegasus treachery (there's an even number of copies of each card) works for us.

I think some other group followed our example, but I don't know if it has become more common.

The "Roll for Track" space advancing the pursuit track is rarely an issue, rolling back the jump preparation track is the more annoying thing - only slightly compensated by using Pegasus Engine Room to guarantee jump preparation on crisis cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Have you played session with a mixture of all expansions included? How have you find the balance? Sounds like you have a few games under your belt...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you don't play with Mutiny, you'd need to make adjustments and/or leave out many of the texts that reference them...

Chars
Tom - all 3 of his abilities (special, OPG, and weakness) deal with Mutiny


skill cards
Dradis Contact, Bait, Personal Vices, Exploit Weakness, and Force Their Hand


locations
The new Administration and Press Room...


Motives
One of them requires a CL to have Mutiny to fulfill

Crisis Cards
various ones... 6 skill check, 2 Event ones

Dante3000 wrote:
Have you played session with a mixture of all expansions included? How have you find the balance? Sounds like you have a few games under your belt...
Most of my PBF games, as well as IRL games with new groups have been with all exps.

Balance seems fine. Peggy is there to balance out CFB. Play to Kobol if you want something that's "standard", but otherwise, I've managed to play with all 3 objectives, and nothing too terrible.

Otherwise, it's hard to get "balance" b/c sometimes, you have groups where cylons win naturally. Other times, it's humans. Yet in other games, whichever team the experienced players end up, that's the team that wins.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dante3000 wrote:
Have you played session with a mixture of all expansions included? How have you find the balance? Sounds like you have a few games under your belt...
330 logged plays (around 380 total), almost all (of the 330 at least) with all expansions to Kobol (with CFB, Final Five + Personal Goals, with Cylon Leader Motives when appropriate, and the adjusted treachery deck).

You win some, you lose some, but almost always the game comes to the last jump cycle. (Today Cylons won at distance 9 by Fuel, only 1 Mutiny card came out in this game.)

You can't determine balance from single plays. Balance also comes from the players. If the cylons win too much, players need to play more selflessly from the start. If the humans win too much, the players need to play more selfisly from the start.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, 330 plays!

Thanks for the advice all. I will need to adjust the Treachery Deck and give that a go, but you've convinced me to stick to the Mutineer and just 'get gud'.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Janne
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Dante3000 wrote:
Wow, 330 plays!

Thanks for the advice all. I will need to adjust the Treachery Deck and give that a go, but you've convinced me to stick to the Mutineer and just 'get gud'.
Nah, ditch The Mutineer (and use Cylon Leader when Mutineer would be needed) and stick with the mutiny deck.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You know... never played with a Cylon Leader before.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dante3000 wrote:
You know... never played with a Cylon Leader before.
The BGG community overall prefers CL over Mutr. And we're leaving out those who don't like either.

I have run into some folks who actually much prefer Mutr. over CL
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Esben Heick
msg tools
mb
What would be the consequence of simply mixing the two treachery decks ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
esque wrote:
What would be the consequence of simply mixing the two treachery decks ?
The Reckless effects from Pegasus treachery would have much larger effect, and if playing with Cylon Attack Crisis cards the effect of the Daybreak treachery would be much diluted. (Also, less Mutiny cards would enter the game.)

We play with the Cylon Fleet Board, which isn't taken into account by Daybreak treachery, so we have shuffled exactly half of Pegasus treachery with the Daybreak treachery deck. (There is even number of each Pegasus treachery card.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Esben Heick
msg tools
mb
Thanks. I noticed you wrote about this elsewhere/earlier, and that there are walls of text and analysis by a great many people regarding game balance in this subforum.

As a new user to this particular forum, I've noted:
Its curious, how bgg-subforums work in different ways. In the Root subforum, people celebrate the asymmetri by creating weird new factions. This is reinforced by the fact that the devs are on the forum as well, chiming in on peoples work. Tweaks are highly encouraged, an if you make a good one, people will download it and give it a shot. In War of the Ring subforum, people celebrate the asymmetri by playing the game endlessly as-is and worshipping the extremely delicate balance between light and shadow, and the derived almost 50/50 win rate. Tweaks are not encouraged, they are frowned upon!

In this subforum, people celebrate the asymmetri by toying with the endless expansion modules, trying to create a flavor that matches their personal taste in a way that balances cylons v humans. It ends up being a really analytical process to digest, but its good fun, and you can find gold in these discussions.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Winter Soldier
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Battlestar almost forces home-ruling and tweaking if you own more than one of the expansions, as they don't mix well together. There are parts of the expansions I love and want to keep, but find others just slow the whole game down and sap out the fun. It's a balancing act I'm yet to get right and I play this game a whole let less because of it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
esque wrote:
What would be the consequence of simply mixing the two treachery decks ?
==== DILUTED
Less Mutiny, since 19 (6 + 6 + 4 + 3) cards out of the 26 that dabble with Mutiny are now 19 out of 52

Less Daybreak-style resolving Reckless skill checks since it checks for 0s, while Pegasus Tr skill cards range from 1 through 3. If you'd like to main the same ratio, adjust so that flipping up a 1-strength also triggers you to resolve the text effects of the next Tr card


==== back in action
Some of the Peg Tr. were interesting. Human Weakness makes it such that you can't just have a "designated Mutiny whooping boy". Should prove especially interesting if playing with the Mutr. (Mutineer).

Movement ability on God's Plan. Something for revealed cylons to consider. This was generally considered a "meh" move, but as this is already a variant, you can always "buff it to taste"

Sabotage is still an interesting deterrent to human's just casually discarding Treachery. The new 0s in Day helped, but you're still free to discard all the other Treachery with impunity.

.

Broadcast Location was kinda strong. Put out a (whole) bs in front, and 1 civvy behind Gally.

By Your Command was also strong. Activate all raiders, heavies (but not cents), and Occupation Forces (if you're on New Caprica, and obviously playing with that objective).

The above 2 hardly triggered since they required human intervention, but when they did hit, they hit hard. Contrast that to Daybreak Tr which is overall worse, but mainly b/c they're all Skill Check, so they ALWAYS trigger. However, the flipside is their effects have been (rightfully) toned down).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls