Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cragheart's Backup Ammo with item #33 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jeff Wygal
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This has probably been asked, and answered, already, but I couldn't find it. I apologize, but I did spend a while looking. I'm wondering about how Cragheart's Backup Ammunition works with prosperity 4 item #33.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It comes down to whether Backup Ammunition is resolved before Volatile Bomb. Suppose I use Massive Boulder while Backup Ammunition is active. There are two possibilities:

1)Backup Ammunition is resolved first on the single target Massive Boulder. Since the attack is no longer a single-target attack, I cannot use Volatile Bomb.

2)Volatile Bomb is resolved first on the single target Massive Boulder. Backup Ammunition is then resolved to potentially add a fourth target to the attack.

The posts I've seen assume #2, but its not obvious to me, and I haven't found anything confirming it.

Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Kortegaard
Denmark
Kbh N
flag msg tools
The stuff below is copied from the FAQ, so number 2. Important bits is the fourth target has to be within range, but not neccessarily adjacent to the area.
I'm guessing the below entry was added primarily because of "add target" as a rolling modifier, but it translates well to your question.

Nice combo btw, some serious damage you can rack up with that if the enemies are clustered.

From FAQ:

How does Add Target interact with area attacks?
Add Target always adds a single extra target within the range of your attack to the attack, and this target cannot be an enemy already targeted by the attack (a single attack ability cannot target the same enemy multiple times). So if you got an Add Target effect on an area attack, you could pick one enemy within range but outside of the area (because all enemies in the area are already getting attacked) to get hit by the attack as well. All conditions and other effects of the attack (other than effects that would add additional attack targets) would apply to the added target, as well. Each instance of the Add Target effect adds an additional target to the attack using the above guidelines. Add Target DOES NOT add a hex to the area so effects that apply to the "Area" don't apply to the Add Target.

Note that if an attack ability targets everything within a specified range, Add Target would do nothing since you are already targeting everything in that range.

Edit: Realised you might have looked this deep already, and found a bit more to strengthen the interpretation.
Additional quote from the item use section of the the FAQ:

If you have one item that prevents the use of another (like an item A that can only be used on a single target attack and another item B that adds a target to the attack), can you play both items by playing A first?
Yes. You can play items in what ever order you chose as long as their conditions are met at the time you play them.

But goes with the general trend that you can use items and powers for biggest benefit. Like ordering shield from items, armour and powers depending on wether you want to lose armour charges or not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wygal
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for your reply. Your edit gets to the issue, but instead of two items, it is one item and a persistent bonus from an ability. I think it is the same, though. Unless I hear differently, I think I can choose which to apply first, so it would make sense to choose option #2.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
kornetmuse kornetmuse
France
flag msg tools
Hummmmm. It's still tricky because the clarification is only about items wich are used at the same time so you can choose wich to choose.

But here it is different because backup ammunition says

"On your next four ranged attacks action gain add target". The wording let suppose that it is innate to the attack action itself (before starting using it).


In the other hand item 33 says

Spoiler (click to reveal)
During your single-target ranged attack action, turn the attack into the following


That let suppose that the attack has already started (and you could use it after the first attack modifier).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Kortegaard
Denmark
Kbh N
flag msg tools
I agree it not spelled out anywhere what this specific interaction is. But as mentioned there is precedence for you choosing the order of application of modifying effects, also between powers and items. Say a shield power with rest of round duration, a tower shield and hide armour.

From FAQ about shield and retaliate:
If I take one point of damage from an attack and have multiple abilities (from ability cards or items) which give me Shield when taking damage from an attack, do I have to use all of them?
No. You can choose which Shield bonus to apply in this case, and once the damage is reduced to zero, it is no longer a source of damage, so any other bonuses do not have to be used.

Back-up ammunition is not invalidated by using Item #33, as it is still a ranged attack. Similarly to how Dirt tornado would trigger it.

edit: a word
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
kornetmuse kornetmuse
France
flag msg tools
robertflatt wrote:
I agree it not spelled out anywhere what this specific interaction is. But as mentioned there is precedence for you choosing the order of application of modifying effects, also between powers and items. Say a shield power with rest of round duration, a tower shield and hide armour.

From FAQ about shield and retaliate:
If I take one point of damage from an attack and have multiple abilities (from ability cards or items) which give me Shield when taking damage from an attack, do I have to use all of them?
No. You can choose which Shield bonus to apply in this case, and once the damage is reduced to zero, it is no longer a source of damage, so any other bonuses do not have to be used.

Back-up ammunition is not invalidated by using Item #33, as it is still a ranged attack. Similarly to how Dirt tornado would trigger it.

edit: a word
It's not the same thing here as I see it. The shields powers for the brute for exemple is worded as

"On the next x sources of damages from attacks..." just like the item that grant you a shield. As long as the timing is the same you can order it the way you want. And when there is no more source of damage then there is no more trigger for power/items.

But here it seems that the timing is not the same (per the words used).

So maybe the wording is not the one intended and you can manage to choose the order (and a fa entry is needed)

Maybe, it's just me interpreting it wrong.


For my concern, I will play that you can't use the item with backup amunition until a confirmation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rémi Fortin
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Both elements trigger on ranged attack action. So you have to choose application order, but Volatile bomb can't trigger after Backup ammunition, so you have to choose to apply Volatile bomb before applying Backup ammunition, as long you respect the Volatile bomb initial condition.

For more details because I know that without more things there are some people that disagree. Here the interesting part from the FAQ :
Quote:
When are abilities that say "on your next attack action" (and similar) actually triggered?
They trigger after declaring the target of the first attack but before drawing the modifier card.

When exactly can I use an item? Can I use it in the middle of a movement or other ability? Can I use items outside of my turn?
Items are only used during your turn unless it is used as a reaction to an enemy (as per its wording) or during a granted out-of-turn action if the action matches the item's restrictions. During your turn you can use an item at any time, including but not limited to: during a movement, after consuming an element and gaining its effects during attack resolution, or after you have taken all your actions - with the following restrictions:
- Must meet all restrictions listed on the card
- If an item affects an attack (e.g. adds a bonus, an effect, advantage or disadvantage), it has to be used before an attack modifier is drawn
- If an item grants an action, it cannot be used in the middle of another action
- An item cannot be used before/during "start of turn" effects nor after/during "end of turn" effects
Both have to be applied before drawing the modifier deck so

Quote:
In cases of ambiguity where players decide the outcome, how should the players decide? Should they do what is best for themselves or worst for themselves?
It is up to you. That is why you are deciding. It is assumed that you would decide whatever is best for you, but, again, it is up to you. Note that ambiguity with respect to attack modifier cards drawn for advantage/disadvantage are not decided by the players - the rule book states how to resolve that (use the first drawn card).
And for very hardconvincing people, a response from Isaac after exactly the same question
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/28290341#28290341
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Kortegaard
Denmark
Kbh N
flag msg tools
Not necessarily. Take the bottom action of Shield Bash (Brute 1) for example (shield 1 till end of round). 9 out of 10 times you would apply that first, but if you're planning on taking a long rest afterwards, it would make sense to use the armour first if it's on it's last charge, and could then be replenished.

Different wording and the FAQ still applies. But you do you. The game is fun either way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremiah kiper
United States
Independence
Missouri
flag msg tools
I don’t consider it innate to the attack action. It’s a single target attack action with an added target modification from a different source.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
kornetmuse kornetmuse
France
flag msg tools

This quote settle the thing !

Quote:
When are abilities that say "on your next attack action" (and similar) actually triggered?
They trigger after declaring the target of the first attack but before drawing the modifier card.
Thanks Rémi.

With this enlightment I agree with you now .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls