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Folklore: The Affliction» Forums » Rules

Subject: Dual Wield different take rss

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Dave T
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I find the base rule of having to spend 1 Power point each time you Dual Wield to be annoying and punishing at least when it comes to 2 weapons. So I am trying to think of another system to use instead of just ignoring it all together. In some games you end up getting a penalty to your damage when dual wielding which could work or maybe you need to roll more might to overcome the enemies defense value, or perhaps you need to roll some sort of luck roll which if you have a skill for luck might increase your chances. What do you guys think?
 
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Greg
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Some games reduce your accuracy when dual wielding, so in Folklore that would mean reducing your Might.
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Casey Nordell

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Glic2003 wrote:
Some games reduce your accuracy when dual wielding, so in Folklore that would mean reducing your Might.
Or, you could roll might with disadvantage (roll twice and take the lowest). Maybe not a great idea but I'm just brainstorming...
 
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Dave T
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Actually so far I like both those ideas, let’s keep em rolling.
 
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Greg
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I think -15 Might for every attack roll while dual-wielding would be fair.

If the penalty was greater than that, it would probably not be useful.
 
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Tom Eklund
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I like the Might penalty idea, the Disadvantage rule sounds too much like D&D 5th edition.. which in D100 system is a bit less elegant than D20 because of the excessive dice rolling..
 
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zee Parks
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Glic2003 wrote:

I think -15 Might for every attack roll while dual-wielding would be fair.

If the penalty was greater than that, it would probably not be useful.
Agreed.
 
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Steve Malczak
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The problem with a flat Might penalty is that it should be mathematically solvable whether it's ALWAYS better to use the 2nd weapon or NEVER better to use the 2nd weapon.

The Power Point cost makes it a decision and allows for the boost when needed. If the PP cost is out of proportion to the benefit (quite possible) then perhaps allow 1 PP to make the attack for the next 'x' rounds or even for the entire combat. Somewhere in there is the correct break-point which still leaves the decision-making intact and removes the basic math calculation (ie, determining expected DP'S').
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zee Parks
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Talenn wrote:
The problem with a flat Might penalty is that it should be mathematically solvable whether it's ALWAYS better to use the 2nd weapon or NEVER better to use the 2nd weapon.

The Power Point cost makes it a decision and allows for the boost when needed. If the PP cost is out of proportion to the benefit (quite possible) then perhaps allow 1 PP to make the attack for the next 'x' rounds or even for the entire combat. Somewhere in there is the correct break-point which still leaves the decision-making intact and removes the basic math calculation (ie, determining expected DP'S').
also agreed.
 
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James W
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You could spend a PP to dual wield at no penalty or take progressively increasing penalties -5/-10/-15/-20 (stays at -20 no matter how long the combat).

You could also use that system with a straight -10 or -15 penalty instead of an increasing penalty (which while thematic is one more thing to track).

Either way, it encourages the use of the ability but also consumes some energy forcing you some decisions.

Another alternative would be to disallow the damage bonus on the secondary weapon without the use of a Power Point. If you did this, I would skip the Might penalty.
 
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Greg
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I just don't like the idea of using power points to dual-wield because it makes little thematic sense. That is, it doesn't seem like the kind of activity that would require a certain amount of "energy" to do.
 
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James W
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Glic2003 wrote:

I just don't like the idea of using power points to dual-wield because it makes little thematic sense. That is, it doesn't seem like the kind of activity that would require a certain amount of "energy" to do.
Swing a stick around and see how long it takes to get tired. Now swing two sticks around and see how long it takes to get tired. I bet you'll get tired faster swinging two sticks than one.

So it makes sense to me that this ability has a cost but is the cost too high for what you get? Is making it a free action unbalanced compared to other abilities that have a similar AP cost? Is the cost there for the sake of balance at the expense of theme?

Here's some starting abilities, the AP cost, PP Cost, and effect
Crack the whip - 1 AP, 1 PP - +1d4 damage
Into the Heart - 1 AP, 1 PP - 2d6 damage with a stake.
Re-burial - 2 AP, 0 PP - Gain an extra attack against Undead during first round of combat.
Environmental Slaughter - 1 AP, 1 PP - 1d6 to another foe after killing a corporeal enemy
Subterfuge - 2 AP, 2 PP - Ignore a melee attack against you, move to an adjacent space, and do 1d4 damage
Blessing of the Cross - 1 AP, 1 PP - deal 1d6 against specific foes
Valence Jolt - 1 AP, 1/2/3 PP - 1d4/2d4/3d4 damage
Seek the Chakra - 1 AP, 1 PP - deal +2 damage on a successful hit
Game Huntsman - 1 AP, 0/1/2 PP - Gain +5 Might/+10 Might/whole party gets +10 might against a marked nature foe.

So, extra free attack for no cost (and no penalty) seems over-powered when compared to these abilities. However, as been said on this forum a number of times: house rule the game so it's the game you want to play.
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Dave T
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So far to recap we have

Disadvantage Roll on might:
Roll twice and take the lower roll

Might Penalty:
-15 might on check

Progressively Increase Might Peanlty:
progressively increasing penalties -5/-10/-15/-20 (stays at -20 no matter how long the combat)

PP balancing:
1 PP to make the attack for the next 'x' rounds or even for the entire combat


So far I'm leaning to PP balancing.
 
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Ken Newell
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Oh just play by the rules as written and be done with it!

cool

If you don’t like the rules as written don’t play the game. It’s not like there aren’t a ton of games to choose from.
Heck, don’t like the rules, design your own game.
Sheesh, you’d think that playing games was all about fun based on you wanting to change the rules...

/sarcasm
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Mr G
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toyotawolf wrote:
So far to recap we have

Disadvantage Roll on might:
Roll twice and take the lower roll

Might Penalty:
-15 might on check

Progressively Increase Might Peanlty:
progressively increasing penalties -5/-10/-15/-20 (stays at -20 no matter how long the combat)

PP balancing:
1 PP to make the attack for the next 'x' rounds or even for the entire combat


So far I'm leaning to PP balancing.
Another option would be to roll damage (not might) on both attacks with disadvantage. Or perhaps only on one of the two attacks.

Damage disadvantage on both attacks is a tough call. Mathematically solvable I guess.

Damage disadvantage only on one attack is strictly ‘always better’ than just making one attack (with the original weapon) but the decision space is around taking an off hand weapon rather than a two hand weapon / shield etc.
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Steve Malczak
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Note that there is also a Prayer which temporarily removes the PP cost from the 2nd hand option so IMO unless you want to pull that Prayer out, I'd leave some sort of PP cost.

I haven't played far yet so I don't know how precious PPs are in the long run but if playing with the Advanced rules it seems you can restore them just by passing your turn in combat. You also get a rest 1/chapter so they didn't seem that irreplaceable to me yet.

And the PP cost doesn't really seem out of line with the costs of some of the other abilities I've seen so far.
 
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Dave T
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Ah but pretty much every ability uses PP so you can burn em pretty quick with skirmishes and encounters
 
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zee Parks
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toyotawolf wrote:
Ah but pretty much every ability uses PP so you can burn em pretty quick with skirmishes and encounters
then use this from 2E rulebook, advanced encounters/skirmishes pg 35
FOCUS: During active combat, a character may spend their Act to recover 1 Power point.
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Mr G
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zeeparkes wrote:
toyotawolf wrote:
Ah but pretty much every ability uses PP so you can burn em pretty quick with skirmishes and encounters
then use this from 2E rulebook, advanced encounters/skirmishes pg 35
FOCUS: During active combat, a character may spend their Act to recover 1 Power point.
I just received the core game plus dark tales in the UK yesterday, and have been reading a lot of on line comments. Looks as though the advanced rules in 2E sort out quite a few concerns. Good stuff.
 
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I like how dual wielding works with spending a PP to activate it.

makes sure it is not overpowered and a nice decision on when to use it.
 
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Tom Eklund
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partenopei wrote:
I like how dual wielding works with spending a PP to activate it.

makes sure it is not overpowered and a nice decision on when to use it.
But should it be a decision to use the second weapon when you are dual wielding? I mean, it's probably more realistic that when you wield two weapons, you should be able to use them both all the time (maybe with the suggested Might penalty)..
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Azikin wrote:
partenopei wrote:
I like how dual wielding works with spending a PP to activate it.

makes sure it is not overpowered and a nice decision on when to use it.
But should it be a decision to use the second weapon when you are dual wielding? I mean, it's probably more realistic that when you wield two weapons, you should be able to use them both all the time (maybe with the suggested Might penalty)..
I guess it would be more realistic to be able to use both weapon attacks all the time but then we would need to subdue its effects to stop it becoming overpowered.....which, as the suggestions above will further complicate the game.

In any case, 2-weapon fighting was not particularly effective or popular or everybody would have utilized the strategy.

most 2 weapon systems of fighting used a second weapon more for defense than attack.

I am all for house-ruling but with this rule, for us, the official ruling seems fine.
 
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Dave T
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We are leaning more likely to using the advanced rules for recovering PP but also having the dual wield cover an entire encounter, or possibly rolling two might rolls and taking the lesser, which in reality is quick and wouldn't cause that much slow down (you realize we are debating the quickness of picking the dice up again and rolling......it doesn't take minutes to do that). The thing we found if that the PP cost to dual wield kind of jars us out of the theme because it just doesn't make much sense, other than a way to reduce the use of an over powered attack. PP should be used for something awesome and if i were to spend a PP every time i dual wield i would want some epic bonus so it would be like using an ultimate attack from FF7, THEN i would say hell yes 1 PP to dual wield and i'd go off and be quiet.
 
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if you dual wield with an ARCING weapon in each hand...that is pretty awesome :-)
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Captain Happy
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Trying this...

If after attacking with main weapon FOE vita loss = 0
Then offhand weapon use has NO cost [Thematically: main attack was a feint or weak attack etc., so not much energy expended]
Otherwise offhand weapon cost = 1 PP as normal.

Thinking of using FOE vita loss <=1 instead of = 0 for a 2 character game.

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