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Sword & Sorcery» Forums » General

Subject: Hey, it's back on the Hotness! rss

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Jason K
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I was wondering if this game would ever show up on the front page again!

It's actually one of the best, most straightforward dungeon crawlers in modern times (not to mention the excellent AI). So I'm always happy to see it getting more attention.

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I guess the main issue with the game is that its quite expensive for what it offers in content. You easily pay roughly $200 to get all the first KS stuff (Act I & II plus additional heroes) and you only have a total of 20 quests maximum. Thats a lot compare to other games on the market, e.g. Gloomhaven or Darklight, who offer epic campaigns that comprise of hundreds of hours of gameplay.
 
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Skaak
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gole11216 wrote:
you only have a total of 20 quests maximum.


Each of which takes 3-5 hours to play, has very different objectives and setups, and is easily replayable with the extra heroes that are available because a new party leads to a very different experience.

So by my calculations that's $200 for 60-100 hours of playtime in a single playthrough, not counting extra replays. Gloomhaven, on the other hand, is a legacy game with a bunch of incredibly same-y quests.

Now, don't get me wrong; I'm sure Gloomhaven is a great game. But this argument against S&S makes literally no sense to me. There is a ton of gameplay in the S&S box, and the quest design is so much better it's not even worth comparing. But oh god, only 7 quests in the core, the sky is falling!
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Greg
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Skaak wrote:
gole11216 wrote:
you only have a total of 20 quests maximum.


Each of which takes 3-5 hours to play, has very different objectives and setups,


Some of them take 3-5 hours. Some of them are much shorter.

Skaak wrote:

and is easily replayable with the extra heroes that are available because a new party leads to a very different experience.



No it doesn't. I tried re-playing the campaign with different characters, and felt like I was just going through the same motions all over again.

Skaak wrote:

So by my calculations that's $200 for 60-100 hours of playtime in a single playthrough, not counting extra replays.
Gloomhaven, on the other hand, is a legacy game with a bunch of incredibly same-y quests.


It has about 90 quests, and they're all of a consistent length. I definitely haven't found the quests to be "incredibly samey" either. For example, a boss encounter plays much differently than a side quest. Also, with Gloomhaven you get 17 characters in the core box, and they play completely differently.

The "legacy" angle is irrelevant; you can restart the whole campaign or run multiple campaigns if you really want to. This has already been discussed to death.


Skaak wrote:

Now, don't get me wrong; I'm sure Gloomhaven is a great game. But this argument against S&S makes literally no sense to me. There is a ton of gameplay in the S&S box, and the quest design is so much better it's not even worth comparing. ...


I really don't think the S&S quest design is that great. Some of the quests are so long and so fiddly, it just feels like a chore to get through them. The Book of Secrets makes the game extra fiddly, and doesn't add as much to the game as it should. Plus, the quest length varies so dramatically, you never know if your session is going to last 2 hours or 6 hours. It's really aggravating.

I've played through all of Immortal Souls, 2.5 times. I've played through Arcane Portal, and I'm over halfway through Darkness Falls. I'm still a fan of the game, but once I'm done all the quests, I'm probably never going to touch it again. Frankly, the last few sessions have just left me wishing I was playing Gloomhaven instead.
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Gene Chiu
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I've only played the first 3 quests of IS, and I love it. I've played them multiple times with friends and solo. I don't want to get too ahead of my friends yet. I've been trying different party compositions. Just recently got the 6 new characters, so I'll be soloing them again with these new characters.
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Timo R
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Skaak wrote:
gole11216 wrote:
you only have a total of 20 quests maximum.


Each of which takes 3-5 hours to play, has very different objectives and setups, and is easily replayable with the extra heroes that are available because a new party leads to a very different experience.

So by my calculations that's $200 for 60-100 hours of playtime in a single playthrough, not counting extra replays. Gloomhaven, on the other hand, is a legacy game with a bunch of incredibly same-y quests.

Now, don't get me wrong; I'm sure Gloomhaven is a great game. But this argument against S&S makes literally no sense to me. There is a ton of gameplay in the S&S box, and the quest design is so much better it's not even worth comparing. But oh god, only 7 quests in the core, the sky is falling!


This objectively nails it.

Generally, a comparison by oversimplification does neither of these games the justice they deserve.

It should be well known, why Gloomhaven came out to be rather affordable especially when considering the amount of content: It uses only a few and medium quality miniatures and all the monsters are just cardboard standees. Also, the graphical design and art are in a different category than S&S. No judgement there, just stating observations.

Comparing Gloomhaven and S&S quests: Try designing your own for either game and balance each, matching the average length of original content. That teaches a perfect lesson on its own why Gloomhaven has so many and S&S does not.

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Jason K
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I own both and play both. They’re both very fun, and both deserve to be on the Hotness.

They’re just very different games: S&S is old-school tactical movement; Gloomhaven is new-school hand management.

But mentioning one always seems to bring up the other these days, in a negative connotation. This is not helpful unless a person can only afford one and wants to know which to buy. (But even then it just comes down to mechanical preference and expectation of content, which are purely subjective.)

To be honest, I’m just excited to be living in a period of time when so many amazing games are being made. The gaming world would be worst off if either of these games failed to succeed.








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Robert H.
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With these being the only option:

Sword & Sorcery if you prefer dungeon crawl

Gloomhaven if you prefer Euros
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I.M. Jeremic
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totally different games

you are comparing a euro game in gloomhaven to a d and d style dungeon crawler in sword and sorcery

s&s is well worth the money for what IT gives the player






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Gene Chiu
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GreatDebate wrote:
They’re just very different games: S&S is old-school tactical movement; Gloomhaven is new-school hand management.

But mentioning one always seems to bring up the other these days, in a negative connotation. This is not helpful unless a person can only afford one and wants to know which to buy. (But even then it just comes down to mechanical preference and expectation of content, which are purely subjective.)


These two games did come out at around the same time and have a very similar fantasy theme. Gloomhaven seems (to me at least) to have generated more publicity than S&S. I'm not sure why. I haven't tried GH yet and am waiting for my friend to take the shrink wrap off his copy.

I actually heard of S&S first because I am a fan of Galaxy Defenders. GH is to me, the next version of that system in a fantasy setting. I was really hyped about it when I first heard about S&S. I read the beta rulebook and knew I was going to get it. It certainly didn't disappoint me.

With almost any product or subject, sometimes conversations can get really polarised on the internet.
 
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