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Subject: Where did Reiner steal this mechanic from? rss

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Christopher Rao
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It's always fun to see how Knizia steal mechanics from his earlier games, mixes them up a bit, refines them and comes up with something really good, like Great Wall. Playing it I saw elements of Loot and Samurai, among other games. Somehow no matter how many old mechanics he uses, it almost always feels fresh to me.

But I'm stumped by the Monk in Great Wall of China. The Monk, you may recall, reduces all cards in that row to 1 point. I know I've seen this before in a specific game (probably one I own!), but I just can't recall which one. I assume, but cannot be sure, that it's a Knizia affair.

FOR BONUS POINTS: Each soldier is equal to the number of your soldiers in play at the time you play that soldier (first is 1, second is 2, third is 3, etc.). This is more common dynamic, almost (but not quite) like plague rats in Magic: The Gathering. Anybody recall a game that uses this mechanic precisely?

Cheers!
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Michael Kröhnert
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Sounds a lot like Condottiere ...

The Winter card has a similar function like the Monk, I'd think.
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Christopher Rao
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Michel wrote:
Sounds a lot like Condottiere ...

The Winter card has a similar function like the Monk, I'd think.
Bingo! For relieving me from my sleepless nights worrying over this, I'm giving you a .

Now only if I could get an answer to the second one...

Cheers!
 
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topherr wrote:

FOR BONUS POINTS: Each soldier is equal to the number of your soldiers in play at the time you play that soldier (first is 1, second is 2, third is 3, etc.). This is more common dynamic, almost (but not quite) like plague rats in Magic: The Gathering. Anybody recall a game that uses this mechanic precisely?


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Michael Kröhnert
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Thanks for the GG!
I fear I have to pass on the second question.
 
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David Weiss
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topherr wrote:
But I'm stumped by the Monk in Great Wall of China. The Monk, you may recall, reduces all cards in that row to 1 point. I know I've seen this before in a specific game (probably one I own!), but I just can't recall which one. I assume, but cannot be sure, that it's a Knizia affair.


Another Knizia game which has this mechanic is Kingdoms, where the dragon tile turns all positive tiles to 0-pointers but leaves negative tiles alone.
 
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Christopher Rao
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tiberiusdw wrote:
topherr wrote:
But I'm stumped by the Monk in Great Wall of China. The Monk, you may recall, reduces all cards in that row to 1 point. I know I've seen this before in a specific game (probably one I own!), but I just can't recall which one. I assume, but cannot be sure, that it's a Knizia affair.

Another Knizia game which has this mechanic is Kingdoms, where the dragon tile turns all positive tiles to 0-pointers but leaves negative tiles alone.
Never seen this one. How is the game?

Cheers!
 
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Peter Mumford
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Kingdoms is another nicely engineered small box Knizia. It is an elegant and even addictive filler that plays well with 2 or 3. In the same league as Great Wall, I think.
It only suffers from tacky Fantasy Flight production and art. BTW, it has even more math that most Knizia games! But if you don't mind a rather dry and thinly themed game, you might like it.

 
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topherr wrote:
But I'm stumped by the Monk in Great Wall of China. The Monk, you may recall, reduces all cards in that row to 1 point. I know I've seen this before in a specific game (probably one I own!), but I just can't recall which one. I assume, but cannot be sure, that it's a Knizia affair.


In Ivanhoe, "Drop Weapon" (I think that is the name of the card) has this effect (changes the tournament to green, where every card is worth one point).
 
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Jon Greisz
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I believe that FFG is re-releasing kingdoms rethemed as Beowolf, but I don't have much info on it. I like Kingdoms, interesting to play, even the kids get into it.
 
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topherr wrote:
FOR BONUS POINTS: Each soldier is equal to the number of your soldiers in play at the time you play that soldier (first is 1, second is 2, third is 3, etc.). This is more common dynamic, almost (but not quite) like plague rats in Magic: The Gathering. Anybody recall a game that uses this mechanic precisely?

It is so common a dynamic, I may scream next time I see it! They're called pyramid numbers:
1 =1
1+1 =2+1=3
1+1+1 =3+3=6
1+1+1+1 =4+6=10
1+1+1+1+1 =5+10=15
et cetera

They are used in Amun-Re, Saint Petersburg, and many other Knizia and non-Knizia games. They probably date back to the beginnings of mathematics.
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topherr wrote:
tiberiusdw wrote:
topherr wrote:
But I'm stumped by the Monk in Great Wall of China. The Monk, you may recall, reduces all cards in that row to 1 point. I know I've seen this before in a specific game (probably one I own!), but I just can't recall which one. I assume, but cannot be sure, that it's a Knizia affair.

Another Knizia game which has this mechanic is Kingdoms, where the dragon tile turns all positive tiles to 0-pointers but leaves negative tiles alone.
Never seen this one. How is the game?

Cheers!


I like it.
I prefer the German "Aus Heller und pfenning" over Kingdoms. The material is much better.
Apparently Beowulf the movie game is a rework of the kingdoms mechanics.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Tall_Walt wrote:
They're called pyramid numbers


More commonly triangle numbers. Pyramid numbers would a more appropriate term for something else. There are tetrahedral numbers, which are sums of traiangle numbers (1, 4, 10, 20, 35, ...). If your pyramid were square rather than triangle based then sums of squares would be appropriate (1, 5, 14, 30, 55, ...).
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Walt
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Dearlove wrote:
More commonly triangle numbers.

Correct: Amun-Re on the brain.
 
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Scott Russell
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Mud in Battleline removes the formation "bonus." Not exactly changing all values to 1, but a similar concept.

The bonus question is kind of a two parter. The triangle number is how the soldiers work in Great Wall, but the Plague Rat mechanism makes the group value equal to the square of the number of identical cards. Roesnkoenig scores like this, but I think there are better examples.
 
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Re: Where did Reiner borrow this mechanic from?
topherr wrote:

FOR BONUS POINTS: Each soldier is equal to the number of your soldiers in play at the time you play that soldier (first is 1, second is 2, third is 3, etc.). This is more common dynamic, almost (but not quite) like plague rats in Magic: The Gathering. Anybody recall a game that uses this mechanic precisely?


Notre Dame uses that mechanic as well (except it's not cards that you play but meeples to place in a field and every meeple/pawn added works like you described it.
 
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qzhdad wrote:
The bonus question is kind of a two parter. The triangle number is how the soldiers work in Great Wall, but the Plague Rat mechanism makes the group value equal to the square of the number of identical cards. Roesnkoenig scores like this, but I think there are better examples.


Commodity scoring in Taj Mahal.
Purchase costs in Amun Re.
 
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Edward
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Dearlove wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
They're called pyramid numbers

More commonly triangle numbers.

Or even more commonly called triangular numbers.

(The term is a parallel construction to square numbers, in which the word square is an adjective, and not merely a noun being used as an adjective.)
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Randall Peek
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A lot of this game was borrowed from an earlier title of his which was a Lord of the Rings card game. This was redone and re-issued in a lesser-known FFG title called King's Gate, which never got the same recognition that Kingdoms got, despite being part of the same Silver Line. If you look, you will see a lot of similarities here.
 
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Jim Cote
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A geeklist all about Pyramid or Triangular numbers:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/9178
 
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Chris Pimlott
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I played Gambit Royale for the first time tonight, very similar to this.
 
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-=[Ran Over]=-
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topherr wrote:
It's always fun to see how Knizia steal mechanics from his earlier games, mixes them up a bit, refines them and comes up with something really good, like Great Wall.
I think variations of both mechanisms can be found in Reiner Knizia's Amazing Flea Circus as Clowns and Acrobats.
 
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