Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Shadows of Brimstone: Forbidden Fortress» Forums » Rules

Subject: Endurance and Armor Saves rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jim Weaver
United States
Hendersonville
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Apologies if this has been asked before.

With the Enforcer Hero, who has Endurance - previously an ability restricted to Monsters, an order question came up in one of our games. Our Enforcer has gained Armor via an Item, so he has both Endurance and Armor. I don't believe any Monsters have that combination - at least none I saw after a cursory scan.

What order do you apply them?

Hit -> Defense -> Armor Saves for each Wound -> Endurance
or
Hit -> Defense -> Endurance -> Armor Saves for each Wound.

With the first option, say you fail a Defense roll for a 5 damage Hit, and have Endurance(3) and Armor 5+. You make 5 armor saves, but Endurance caps you at 3 resulting wounds after those saves.

Second option, you reduce the damage from 5 to 3, and then make Armor Saves. So with the latter you'd only ever be making 3 armor saves.

The first order reduces the power of the combination, the second is more powerful combo. Either way you're only taking a max of 3 wounds, but with the second order you'd take less than 3 much more frequently than you would with the first order.

RAW don't seem to make it clear unless I am missing something.

Endurance states: "Cannot take more than x wounds from a single hit (extra Damage is wasted)"

and armor saves:

"If a Hero has Armor/Spirit Armor,
whenever they are about to take a number
of Wounds/Sanity Damage, roll a D6 for
each point of Damage they are about to take. For each die
roll that is equal to or better than their Armor/Spirit Armor
save, that point of damage is prevented. For example, if a Hero
has Armor 5+ and takes two Hits past their Defense that do 3
Wounds each, the Hero rolls 6 dice. For every 5 or 6 rolled,
a single one of the individual Wounds is prevented."

Neither of those blocks of text makes an intended order stand out to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
This combination seems to make the most sense
Hit -> Defense -> Armor Saves for each Wound -> Endurance

I dont know why Endurance would get sandwiched in-between the damage calculation, but anything is possible.

It seems the clearest and easiest way to resolve this is to calculate damage as normal then apply endurance.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems like a reasonable question.

I'd have to agree with Todd. Endurance kicks in when you're taking Wounds, but Armor prevents the wounds from happening in the first place; so armor should go first.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Autoduelist wrote:
It seems like a reasonable question.

I'd have to agree with Todd. Endurance kicks in when you're taking Wounds, but Armor prevents the wounds from happening in the first place; so armor should go first.

Another one for hopeful FAQ resolution
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jake G.
Netherlands
flag msg tools
I would also agree with Todd. You have to see how many wounds you are actually going to take in order to apply your Endurance, and you don't know that until after Armor has been applied.

Edit: Max has convinced me otherwise with his reasoning below. It's the wording of Endurance that did it, I hadn't read the actual wording recently I just had in mind that it capped total wounds you could take. But the "per hit" aspect of it can only work properly if it's resolved before armor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
I would argue that you apply Endurance first, then apply armor, because of several phrases. Firstly "each point of Damage they are about to take". This phrase indicates that after armour is rolled for, the Hero takes damage, that there is no other step taken once armou is rolled for, so armour forms the last step before wounds are applied. Secondly, "Cannot take more than x wounds from a single hit (extra Damage is wasted)", indicates that there is a cap on the number of wounds per combat hit that an enemy can inflict, so would be worked out at the earliest moment after a hit has been scored. This is likely why the Enforcer starts of with Endurance (5) and has to get to level 5 before he can have Endurance (3), as the Frogs probably playtested it that way.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Troy Gustavel
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmb
Armor - roll for each wound you are ABOUT to take. You aren’t taking the wounds until after you roll the armor save. Once you are actually taking the wounds, endurance caps the maximum. That makes it pretty clear to me that armor comes before endurance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jared Ridinger
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maximillian_Caine wrote:
I would argue that you apply Endurance first, then apply armor, because of several phrases. Firstly "each point of Damage they are about to take". This phrase indicates that after armour is rolled for, the Hero takes damage, that there is no other step taken once armou is rolled for, so armour forms the last step before wounds are applied. Secondly, "Cannot take more than x wounds from a single hit (extra Damage is wasted)", indicates that there is a cap on the number of wounds per combat hit that an enemy can inflict, so would be worked out at the earliest moment after a hit has been scored.

This is how my group has been playing but I admit I see the 'timing' for both cases.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
I respectfully disagree with the idea that Endurance is done last. If these are wounds that the Hero is about to take, then the total number of wounds has already been calculated and is not subject to further calculation. That is to say, these are the wounds the Hero would take if there were no armour saving throws.

If anyone disagrees with that line of reasoning, then consider that Endurance is applied per Hit, but armour saving throws are applied on the total wound pool. How then is Endurance to be applied when wounds per Hit may be random (e.g. Acid Blobs in the Core Set) except when calculating how many wounds a Hit has caused?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't run into this issue yet (still waiting for FoFo here), but t first glance, I agree with Max. I would apply Endurance before Armor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Weaver
United States
Hendersonville
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Sounds like it's a good one to go on the FAQ list. By the way, we played it both ways without realizing we were doing it - in one fight we did Armor before Endurance, and in another, Endurance before Armor. Later on we realized we'd flipped the order and did some reading - but the wording didn't seem clear.

From the wording that's there, I lean a bit towards Max's interpretation, that Armor is the last step just before you are about to take damage, although that does make the combination more powerful.

Max out of curiosity - is there wording somewhere that implies Armor saves come out of the total Wound pool from multiple hits? Rather than Armor saves being made one a per-hit basis? If that text is around somewhere, it would be pretty definitive.

Playtested? I'm not sure how much they playtest ;-). Flying Frog games are great fun, but usually not too precise in language. Maybe they playtest a bunch but just don't write very well ;-).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Weaver
United States
Hendersonville
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Adria, The tiles are gorgeous - and the miniatures are definitely a grade above their first wave.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
Unfortunately, the only example of armour saving throws in the rulebook is when enemies wear it. In the example given on page 27 the Hero does 2 Hits, then all wounds are totalled up before armour saving throws are made. However, I have noticed on page 26, Hits can be assigned and resolved as groups or individually, so a total wound pool would only apply where a player opts to resolve all the hits of an enemy together. It's generally advantageous to assign Hits together because you can only Grit the dice you've just rolled, but this doesn't always apply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Technically you DO roll for Armor per Hit, it just doesn’t usually matter if you group them. An example where you would have to roll different color dice for the wounds from each Hit that got through Defense is when Serpentmen give you a poison marker for “each Hit that does wounds”. You have to track whether or not Armor gets rid a Hit’s damage entirely or not to properly apply the poison markers.

Given this, I believe that you don’t actually take “Wounds from Hits” until Armor is applied; before then do you don’t know which Hits are doing wounds and which aren’t. Meaning Endurance comes last.

From a balance perspective, stacking Endurance before Armor makes that combo extremely powerful. Maybe too much so.

- Jee
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas White
United States
Pacific Grove
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that Endurance comes last. It also makes sense to me from a thematic point, since your Defense is dodging the hits, Armor is protection on your body against the wounds, and the Endurance is what your body actually takes or shrugs off at the end of the process.

The Enforcer's tough scarred body isn't going to reduce the amount of damage coming at any armor he's wearing, it's going to be the other way around. If you have really good armor it may make the Endurance worth a bit less, but sometimes that's how the systems stack. However Endurance becomes more valuable once you hit enemies that ignore Defense and/or Armor.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
I recently acquired a Shogun pledge. Endurance is written a little differently for the Ronin Bodyguard. To wit: "(may not take more than 3 Wounds per hit - ignore any extra)." That would seem explicit to me that the wound cap is calculated after the Hit, but before any armour saves.

EDIT
And hang on a second, it doesn't matter whether a hit finally causes wounds after armour saves or not. Endurance caps wounds caused by a Hit, it is not dependent on how many wounds post-armour saves there are left per Hit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think if we're going to make the Endurance first argument a FAQ question, we also have to consider how it works with enemy models. An enemy's Defense works more like a hero's Armor than it does a hero's Defense, because an enemy's Defense subtracts Wounds from the Hero's wound die. Endurance kicks in after the enemy's Defense is applied. If the opposite direction was true, a Defense 3 enemy becomes damage-proof when coupled with an Endurance 2 or 3 ability; eg - the hero's Wound die is reduced to 2 or 3 and then the enemy's 3 Defense kicks in. Defense for enemies works like Hero armor that always succeeds on the armor roll.

Yes, I realize it's called "Defense" for enemies, but the application order makes a difference for enemies that may combine armor-like abilities (like the vampire's mist-form that cancels Wounds done by heroes) and Endurance; which is why I'm raising the point, because it's something the Hill brothers would have to consider as they're churning out dozens of enemies for the game, all with elite abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maximillian_Caine wrote:
I recently acquired a Shogun pledge. Endurance is written a little differently for the Ronin Bodyguard. To wit: "(may not take more than 3 Wounds per hit - ignore any extra)." That would seem explicit to me that the wound cap is calculated after the Hit, but before any armour saves.

EDIT
And hang on a second, it doesn't matter whether a hit finally causes wounds after armour saves or not. Endurance caps wounds caused by a Hit, it is not dependent on how many wounds post-armour saves there are left per Hit.
"may not take more than 3 Wounds per hit" is the not the same as "may not be assigned more than 3 Wounds per hit". Yes, Endurance does cap wounds caused by Hits but it doesn't cap them (the Wounds per Hit) until the Hero actually takes them, which is after Armor.

For example: say a Ronin (or anything with Endurance) is taking 3 Hits that do 5 Damage each. The Ronin then rolls her Armor all at once using 15 Dice, but using a different color per Hit - 5 White Dice, 5 Red Dice, and 5 Green Dice. The White Dice yield 1 success, the Red Dice 3 successes, and Green Dice 2 Successes. The Ronin is now takes 9 Wounds over 3 hits, with a wound distribution of 4/2/3 over those Hits. Endurance comes into play at this point, making this Distribution 3/2/3 for a total of 8 Wounds not ignored by Endurance.

If this is NOT the correct way to play, then a) Stacking Endurance with Armor will become super-overpowered (an Enforcer with the Outlaw Armor will be functionally impossible to K.O. via Wounds) and b) it directly contradicts how the rest of the game's "damage mod" abilities work. The most current version of the wording on those abilities tend say things like "every time you take 1 or more Wounds, you take an extra (after any Armor Saves)". This indicates that the actual "taking" of the Wounds is immediately post-Armor, and Endurance is a limiter on that "take", per Hit (just like it says).

- Jee
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am subscribed to this thread to monitor for any FAQ proposals.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
You can apply the same logic with the word "assigned" as you can with the word "take", so the choice of word use in this case is immaterial. A plain reading of the sentence for Endurance in either the Ronin definition or the Enforcer definition assigns Endurance to when Wounds are calculated, and that is after defence rolls are taken. This is why: wounds are not calculated after armour rolls are taken, because how would you know what to take saves against? Wounds are calculated once defence rolls are taken so that armour saves can be taken against those defined wounds. The Endurance cap further refines wounds for each Hit, so the earliest point to take it is when Wounds are calculated, when they are known, i.e. prior to armour saves. That Endurance may contradict other special case abilities does not automatically mean that it cannot by virtue of how those other specials work, unless a blanket statement has already been made by the Hills on such special case abilities.

Now, let's consider the Enforcer Space Marine. Let's consider the most brutal case, that he has a Endurance of 2 and a saving throw of 3+. He stands up there with the Death Guard in just how much he can take before he falls over. The Enforcer gets that when he gets to Level 5 and has worked his way down the upgrade tree. The Brutal side of the Dishonoured Dead has the Hell Blades basic ability, which ignores armour. As does Acidic Spit from the Acidic Tentacles, as does a Harianogo with Haunting Gaze. Armour does not automatically turn Enforcers into Space Marines.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jee Fu
United States
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maximillian_Caine wrote:
You can apply the same logic with the word "assigned" as you can with the word "take", so the choice of word use in this case is immaterial. A plain reading of the sentence for Endurance in either the Ronin definition or the Enforcer definition assigns Endurance to when Wounds are calculated, and that is after defence rolls are taken. This is why: wounds are not calculated after armour rolls are taken, because how would you know what to take saves against? Wounds are calculated once defence rolls are taken so that armour saves can be taken against those defined wounds. The Endurance cap further refines wounds for each Hit, so the earliest point to take it is when Wounds are calculated, when they are known, i.e. prior to armour saves. That Endurance may contradict other special case abilities does not automatically mean that it cannot by virtue of how those other specials work, unless a blanket statement has already been made by the Hills on such special case abilities.

Now, let's consider the Enforcer Space Marine. Let's consider the most brutal case, that he has a Endurance of 2 and a saving throw of 3+. He stands up there with the Death Guard in just how much he can take before he falls over. The Enforcer gets that when he gets to Level 5 and has worked his way down the upgrade tree. The Brutal side of the Dishonoured Dead has the Hell Blades basic ability, which ignores armour. As does Acidic Spit from the Acidic Tentacles, as does a Harianogo with Haunting Gaze. Armour does not automatically turn Enforcers into Space Marines.
What is a Space Marine? What is a Death Guard? I have never heard of these things in Brimstone, but I'm going to guess that your argument here is "some things ignore Armor; ergo Endurance applying before Armor isn't overpowered". I find this unconvincing. Do you also thinking that giving every hero in the game +10 damage is balanced because SOME Enemies have Endurance and therefore won't be affected by it?

"Wounds Taken" are absolutely calculated after Armor Saves. You do not take them until you have rolled your Armor. No Wound tokens will go on your Hero Sheet until this point. After rolling your Armor, you will know how many Wound Tokens to take for each undefended Hit. Endurance caps the number of Wound Tokens you have to take for each of those Hits.

But it doesn't limit the amount of damage an Enemy deals per Hit. If you cannot see the difference, then I don't think this conversation is going to go any further. We will have to agree to disagree until Jason makes an official ruling. There aren't that many Armor/Endurance combos in the game anyway.

- Jee
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Caine
msg tools
I agree that we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this, so let's stop here. Autoduelist, could you put forward an FAQ question related to not just Endurance, but perhaps phrase the question to cover future abilities that might positively/negatively alter wounds inflicted or taken? Perhaps something along the lines of

"When a Hit has been registered, at what point do abilities that positively or negatively affect the target (e.g. status effects, or abilities that alter wounds caused or taken) take effect? Is this always after armour saves are taken, are there exceptions, if there are what are those exceptions?"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
No Why
msg tools
Armor is applied before Endurance. At least for monsters. It's specified in one of Kosugi Ninja Master's elite abilities.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've already added a FAQ question linking back to this thread. Flying Frog has several damage modifiers like Toughness, Endurance, doubling damage, etc. that could benefit from being clearly laid out in the rules vs. appearing in different places in a FAQ; otherwise, why bother putting out new core sets all the time with slightly different rule books?

It might be a good idea for Flying Frog to spend some time creating a living rule book that they could host on their website or some other location; but since that doesn't generate revenue, it probably won't happen.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls