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Subject: Sign Up for Season 30 of TM Tour rss

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Sign up here.

http://tmtour.org/#/signup

Games start April 1 around 12:01 AM during Central Europe Time.
 
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Chris Harris
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Hey, a random question for anyone who fancies figuring it out:

Has any individual player won tournament games with each of the 14 factions? If more than one person has, who's done it at the highest level?

I can see Greenraingw has won with all but Dwarves (who he's never played as in the tourney).
 
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Anders Füchtbauer
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fruityharris wrote:
Hey, a random question for anyone who fancies figuring it out:

Has any individual player won tournament games with each of the 14 factions? If more than one person has, who's done it at the highest level?

I can see Greenraingw has won with all but Dwarves (who he's never played as in the tourney).


Greenraingw is also missing an Auren win, but a win with 12/14 factions is not bad at all!

Looking forward to joining D1 next season! meeple
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Robert
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Season 30 = five years! Thanks Daniel!
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Per Olander
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fruityharris wrote:
Hey, a random question for anyone who fancies figuring it out:

Has any individual player won tournament games with each of the 14 factions? If more than one person has, who's done it at the highest level?

I can see Greenraingw has won with all but Dwarves (who he's never played as in the tourney).


I need to play Auren, Giants & Mermaids more in tournaments
and maybe refresh that CM win from D6...


Faction D4 D5 D6 D7
engineers 2 7 2
darklings 1 4
witches 1 1
nomads 1 1
cultists 1 1
alchemists 1 1
swarmlings 1
dwarves 1
chaosmagicians 1
halflings 1
fakirs 1


can you format tables in a nice way here? edit, thanks SpaceTrucker!
 
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Space Trucker
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Per Olander wrote:

Faction D4 D5 D6 D7
engineers 2 7 2 _
darklings 1 _ 4 _
witches 1 1 _ _
nomads _ 1 _ 1
cultists _ 1 1 _
alchemists 1 1 _ _
swarmlings _ 1 _ _
dwarves 1 _ _ _
chaosmagicians _ _ 1 _
halflings _ 1 _ _
fakirs _ 1 _ _


can you format tables in a nice way here?

With the Code tag it's monospaced and therefore a bit nicer:


Faction D4 D5 D6 D7
engineers 2 7 2 _
darklings 1 _ 4 _
witches 1 1 _ _
nomads _ 1 _ 1
cultists _ 1 1 _
alchemists 1 1 _ _
swarmlings _ 1 _ _
dwarves 1 _ _ _
chaosmagicians _ _ 1 _
halflings _ 1 _ _
fakirs _ 1 _ _

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Steve Haas
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OzymandiasDK wrote:
fruityharris wrote:
Hey, a random question for anyone who fancies figuring it out:

Has any individual player won tournament games with each of the 14 factions? If more than one person has, who's done it at the highest level?

I can see Greenraingw has won with all but Dwarves (who he's never played as in the tourney).


Greenraingw is also missing an Auren win, but a win with 12/14 factions is not bad at all!

Looking forward to joining D1 next season! meeple


Greenraingw (and, for that matter, FruityHarris) is among the 10 players who have won a game in the tourney with 12 different factions (as of the end of season 28).

However, there is, in fact, one player who has won with 13 - all save Aurens. The person who has won with the most different factions in tournament history is - that's right, you didn't guess it - TauRus.
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Chris Harris
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OK, the race is on :-)
 
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Socks Wielder
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Just start a new account in D7-D8 and play Auren Giants Fakir until you win with each and you should be good to go .

Funny how he has the most wins with Giants out of all the factions he played.

Who has the most diverse faction wins from D4+?
 
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Steve Haas
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Without even looking I'm gonna guess Xevoc.

::checks::

Xevoc, 11. Yvon, Greenraingw, and zander, 10. All others, 9 or fewer.

In D1 in particular the only people over 6 are Xevoc (still 11) and jsnell (8). Granted, that list starts looking a lot like the list of "people who spent a lot of time in D1", as frankly even winning 6 games in D1, never mind with different factions, is a thing that only a few people have done.
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James Wolfpacker
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Steve496 wrote:
Without even looking I'm gonna guess Xevoc.

::checks::

Xevoc, 11. Yvon, Greenraingw, and zander, 10. All others, 9 or fewer.

In D1 in particular the only people over 6 are Xevoc (still 11) and jsnell (8). Granted, that list starts looking a lot like the list of "people who spent a lot of time in D1", as frankly even winning 6 games in D1, never mind with different factions, is a thing that only a few people have done.


So are you going to try it yourself, now that you have been the winner several times?

Steve496 wrote:
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

...kidding Steve didn't write that.
 
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Steve Haas
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Steve496 wrote:

In D1 in particular the only people over 6 are Xevoc (still 11) and jsnell (8). Granted, that list starts looking a lot like the list of "people who spent a lot of time in D1", as frankly even winning 6 games in D1, never mind with different factions, is a thing that only a few people have done.


So are you going to try it yourself, now that you have been the winner several times?


D1 is competitive enough that, even having been there for a while, I still feel like it's a fight to avoid relegation every season. I think I play well, but playing well, while necessary, is insufficient to hold a spot in D1. I very easily could (and arguably, should) have gotten relegated this season, and not for the first time. And as I would kind of like to hang on long enough to catch mikaeljt (and, in an ideal world, Juho) on marathon... there are limits to how crazy I'm willing to get with faction selection.

And we are talking about something that's hard even relative to the baseline of getting to and then winning in D1. If we look at the all-time ranking of faction wins in D1:

engineers 53
darklings 49
nomads 19
cultists 17
halflings 15
swarmlings 12
mermaids 11
witches 10
chaosmagicians 7
alchemists 5
dwarves 3


...I've already done the top 5. There's one or two more there that have a chance of winning in reasonably normal matchups that I can see happening somewhat organically, but after that... you're kind of waiting on a weird matchup (or an opponent's mistake, or both) for it to be possible even in theory. And at some point that may happen, but there's only so much one can do to try to force it.

So, now that we've had this discussion and I'm aware of the stat, I'll probably pay a bit more attention to it. And I may even get to 6 at some point (assuming I can keep holding on to D1). But I think with where the meta is these days there's significant luck require to get above that, which is probably why very few people have done it.

(Yes, Xevoc has won in D1 with every faction that has ever won a game in D1.)
 
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Socks Wielder
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That's pretty cool. I would have taught Alchemists would have more wins. The list is probably a lot more skewed toward DEC for the last 10 or 15 seasons.

On another note how likely is it that 16VP gets me to D4? There are 6 players in 2nd over 16vp and 2 with exactly 16. 1 league isn't finished so lets's say worst case 7 over 16 and 2 tied. I got through on 9 better and 4-5 tied in season 26. But that was probably a lucky breakthrough, A couple people not signing up from D5 and D4.
 
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Brian Hawaiian
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Socks Wielder wrote:
That's pretty cool. I would have taught Alchemists would have more wins. The list is probably a lot more skewed toward DEC for the last 10 or 15 seasons.

On another note how likely is it that 16VP gets me to D4? There are 6 players in 2nd over 16vp and 2 with exactly 16. 1 league isn't finished so lets's say worst case 7 over 16 and 2 tied. I got through on 9 better and 4-5 tied in season 26. But that was probably a lucky breakthrough, A couple people not signing up from D5 and D4.


Grats to Toshimoko on the league 29 win!
 
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Steve Haas
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Socks Wielder wrote:
That's pretty cool. I would have taught Alchemists would have more wins. The list is probably a lot more skewed toward DEC for the last 10 or 15 seasons.


Alchemists can be good, but their niche is quite narrow (and they're paired up with a faction that's almost always picked early). So basically: you need a fairly rare set of circumstances for them to be good, and then you need a player who actually plays Alchemists (which is not all players, even in D1) to be in an early enough seat to get them before someone takes Darklings. And then, you still need to win. Sometime it is the right play, and it does happen, but there are reasons why it's rare.

The DEC meta is actually a more recent development than one might think. Cultists winning regularly in D1 is actually kind of a new thing, historically speaking. If we break the 28 completed seasons into 4 blocks of 7 seasons, we can see the pattern:

1-7 8-14 15-21 22-28 Total
engineers 6 10 20 17 53
darklings 9 14 16 10 49
nomads 8 7 2 2 19
cultists 1 2 4 10 17
halflings 7 2 2 4 15
swarmlings 5 4 3 0 12
mermaids 5 3 1 2 11
witches 4 4 0 2 10
chaosmagicians 3 2 1 1 7
alchemists 0 3 1 1 5
dwarves 1 1 1 0 3


In the first half of the tournament there were as many wins by Alchemists than by Cultists. It's only in the last year or so that they've been succeeding - over half their wins have happened in the past 7 seasons. Their rise has corresponded to a decline in Nomads and Darklings, with Swarmlings and Witches also dropping off significantly.

Of course, the interesting thing about this is that it's not clear to what extent this is an organic shift in the metagame and to what extent this simply reflects the preferences of those players who happen to be in D1. In the early days a lot of the games were being won by Xevoc and, more generally, some of the other longtime D1ers of that era (jsnell, mikaeljt, eunck, etc.), so if those players didn't care for Cultists... Cultists would rarely succeed. Whereas some of the current D1ers (such as myself) seem to be a lot fonder of the faction - Resnick and I alone account for 6 of those 10 Cultists win in the last block. So is it that Cultists are doing better in general, or is it just that the current D1 players like Cultists better?


Socks Wielder wrote:
On another note how likely is it that 16VP gets me to D4? There are 6 players in 2nd over 16vp and 2 with exactly 16. 1 league isn't finished so lets's say worst case 7 over 16 and 2 tied. I got through on 9 better and 4-5 tied in season 26. But that was probably a lucky breakthrough, A couple people not signing up from D5 and D4.


There are usually a few 2nd-place promotions. I don't have statistics on exactly how many, but my guess is that it's kind of a toss-up at this point. There certainly have been seasons with that many 2nd-place promotions to D4... but there have also certainly been seasons with fewer. You'll probably need to wait until closer to the start of the season to get a clear sense of how signups are going.

Edit: The stat about cultists wins was incorrect. Some of Resnick's Cultists wins in that time period were in D2.
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Brian Hawaiian
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Steve496 wrote:
OzymandiasDK wrote:
fruityharris wrote:
Hey, a random question for anyone who fancies figuring it out:

Has any individual player won tournament games with each of the 14 factions? If more than one person has, who's done it at the highest level?

I can see Greenraingw has won with all but Dwarves (who he's never played as in the tourney).


Greenraingw is also missing an Auren win, but a win with 12/14 factions is not bad at all!

Looking forward to joining D1 next season! meeple


Greenraingw (and, for that matter, FruityHarris) is among the 10 players who have won a game in the tourney with 12 different factions (as of the end of season 28).

However, there is, in fact, one player who has won with 13 - all save Aurens. The person who has won with the most different factions in tournament history is - that's right, you didn't guess it - TauRus.


After this season I'll be at 9/14. Have to step my Swarmling, Auren, Giant, Fakir, and Dwarf game.
 
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Toshimoko
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evitageN wrote:
Socks Wielder wrote:
That's pretty cool. I would have taught Alchemists would have more wins. The list is probably a lot more skewed toward DEC for the last 10 or 15 seasons.

On another note how likely is it that 16VP gets me to D4? There are 6 players in 2nd over 16vp and 2 with exactly 16. 1 league isn't finished so lets's say worst case 7 over 16 and 2 tied. I got through on 9 better and 4-5 tied in season 26. But that was probably a lucky breakthrough, A couple people not signing up from D5 and D4.


Grats to Toshimoko on the league 29 win!


Thanks !
It took me four years :-)
 
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Francesco Bardi
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Steve496 wrote:


The DEC meta is actually a more recent development than one might think. Cultists winning regularly in D1 is actually kind of a new thing, historically speaking. If we break the 28 completed seasons into 4 blocks of 7 seasons, we can see the pattern:

1-7 8-14 15-21 22-28 Total
engineers 6 10 20 17 53
darklings 9 14 16 10 49
nomads 8 7 2 2 19
cultists 1 2 4 10 17
halflings 7 2 2 4 15
swarmlings 5 4 3 0 12
mermaids 5 3 1 2 11
witches 4 4 0 2 10
chaosmagicians 3 2 1 1 7
alchemists 0 3 1 1 5
dwarves 1 1 1 0 3




The ugly bit of the story that emerges from this is that back in the first half of the tournament the meta was considerably more diversified. It was more or less possible to win with any faction... nowadays it feels like it's very hard to pull off a win with something that isn't Darklings, Engineers or Cultists. I'm glad the cultists are catching up as the "teens period" was even worse... with only Darklings and Engineers winning.

Steve496 wrote:
So is it that Cultists are doing better in general, or is it just that the current D1 players like Cultists better?


I tend to lean for the latter hypothesis


 
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Steve Haas
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It was more diverse, but I think that's mostly the fact that the competition was not as stiff in those days. If you look at players from the early seasons, the average ratings are more in line with modern-day D3 players. It took some time for the tournament to get popular and then the promotion/relegation system to sort the best players to the top.

In practice, this meant that there were a fair number of "Xevoc plays some people who aren't as good as him" games. And while some other very good players (Eunck, Juho, etc.) got to D1 fairly promptly, there was still an element of "those players play some players that aren't as good as them." Which means that the wins went to... whatever they were playing.

As an illustration of this fact: the 8 nomads wins in the first seven seasons looks great until you think about the fact that 5 of them were Xevoc (and 2 were eunck). More generally: of the 19 Nomads wins in history, 9 are Xevoc, 3 eunck, and no one else has won with them more than once.

Hence: one can make the case that it's not that nomads were a better faction relative to the meta back then; it's just that Xevoc was good enough relative to his opponents to win with whatever, and he played Nomads a lot, therefore...

Also: while Nomads have the most blatant split of that sort, the pattern on a lesser scale occurs repeatedly through the less-victorious factions. 2 of the 3 Dwarves wins are Xevoc. Eunck has 3 of the CM wins and no one else has more than 1. Only Xevoc and jsnell have won with Halflings more than once. And so on.
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James Wolfpacker
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This is why Map Balanced VP should be used in the tournament. It's far from perfect, but it is certainly going to shake things up.
 
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Steve Haas
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Can we please not have the debate about Map Balanced VP for the millionth time? I understand that some members of this community are big fans of them, but a lot of us aren't. More generally: everyone knows about them at this point and so hammering the point in every single thread that talks about something even mostly related is starting to feel like propaganda rather than a sincere effort to inform/discuss.

(And to the extent that people don't know about them, a stickied post in News or Variants seems like a better fix than bringing them up constantly in mostly-unrelated threads).
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Robert
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What's this variable VP thing? Can somebody please list all the pros and cons an/=P)(/8

no, Steve, no! It's just a jokP?= Üf142(/

<connection lost>
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Dhrun
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Steve496 wrote:
Can we please not have the debate about Map Balanced VP for the millionth time?

I guess a bell rings at the desks of James and the other lobbyist when keywords like "balance" occur in the forum.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Dhrun wrote:
Steve496 wrote:
Can we please not have the debate about Map Balanced VP for the millionth time?

I guess a bell rings at the desks of James and the other lobbyist when keywords like "balance" occur in the forum.


I'm actually subscribed to the entire forum, so anything will show up.

I understand this has been hashed through a bunch of times, but if you all complain about it, debate it, and aren't willing to take the leap to try this slightly better method, then what is the point of complaining or debating it?

It would definitely shake up the tables Steve posted and that's probably a good thing.

Something else that would probably shake up the game are some new round scoring tiles too. whistle
 
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Steve Haas
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I won't speak for anyone else, but I, personally, am not complaining about faction diversity in the upper divisions. I enjoy debating faction balance. I enjoy pulling fun facts out of the statistics. And I would definitely enjoy the discussions and debates that would arise out of a serious effort to find faction tweaks that improved the game. But there is nothing so broken in TM that I feel it *needs* changing at this point in time. And to the extent that something does need changing: the tournament is not the place to experiment with such things. The tournament is an established institution that should only adopt new and different things when they are well-established as improvements, not as an experiment because it might be better.

And I use the word "might" intentionally. I know you think it's "slightly better", but there is no data that I have seen that makes it clear that Map Balanced VP are an improvement. It might be; it might not be. But the tournament is not the place to do that experiment.

At a fundamental level: why do you think shaking things up would make things better? Do you also have proposals to "shake up" Chess and Go? Just because there are similarities between games doesn't mean there isn't deep and interesting strategy (and strategic evolution) happening. If change makes the game better, sure, let's make the game better, but we shouldn't be doing changes just for the sake of making changes.

And frankly: given that the very statistics you allude to show that we're in the midst of a more-or-less unprecedented metagame shift, with a legitimate challenger to Darklings/Engineers dominance arising for the first time since the metagame began to converge - never mind the other, smaller shifts like C1 MEND - I'm not sure why now is the time we should be looking to stir the pot (even assuming it needs to be stirred).
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