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Subject: Sign Up for Season 30 of TM Tour rss

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Chris Harris
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I've had a rules tweak going round my head for a few weeks that I've been looking for an excuse to post, and trying to derail the latest "balance" discussion seems as good a use as any.

I remember Steve posting a couple of times his theory that during design and playtesting, TM was a game that involved a lot more worker digging. Indirectly this explains the popularity of Act4, the strength of Darklings, maybe some other things?

How about, you now get 2vp for digging with 3 workers and 1vp for digging with 2 workers? I wonder if it might be an elegant way to balance the game a bit.

Pros:
- Already precedent for getting vp for digging
- Easy to implement both on faction boards and in code
- Is almost certainly a small nerf for the darklings, which we all thing is a Good Thing
- Is possibly a small buff for the fakirs but I'd like to see stats to back that up

Cons:
- Is also a nerf for riverwalkers, fire factions and possibly giants - would need to whack that mole somehow but doesn't seem impossible
 
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Robert
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Hard digging for VPs? Sounds like an interesting idea ... for a topic in the variants forum.
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Steve Haas
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I... kind of suspect that that's not enough to make worker digging appealing. At the moment act5 and act3 are roughly equally (in)efficient, and a worker dig is act3 + an extra worker to do the job of act5. So in order for worker digging to be even as good as act5 (which is to say: sometimes necessary, but rarely a priority), whatever benefit one applies to worker digging needs to be at least as good as a worker. And I'd argue that a worker is better than 2vp until at least R5, if not R6. So I suspect this change would make it slightly less painful when you need to worker-dig, but would only minimally increase the number of times it actually happens.

I also think it's a little weird that it makes advancing digging a little less good - instead of digging getting better by 1w each time, it gets better by 1w but also loses 1vp, which... is still an improvement, but it's a smaller improvement, and it's not like there's an overabundance of people advancing digging as it is.

That might actually be an alternative way to get at a similar goal, though - if you made advancing digging cheaper, people would do it (and thus worker-dig) more. So it might be interesting to see what the effect reducing the cost of digging to, say, 1p1w4c (and reducing the vp it gives to 3-4) would be. You'd also need to find some way of tweaking halflings and the ice factions so this wouldn't be a straight nerf to them, and the effects on the game would be far-reaching and thus hard to speculate on, but it'd be at least potentially interesting and would have a lot more worker digging.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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When the game was designed the idea was to upgrade digging. Darklings get 2vp per priest dig because that is supposed to make up for not being able to get 12vp from upgrading digging. If we eliminate ACT5, ACT6, and BON1 from the game and not give spades as cult rewards, then you really would not have too much choice but to upgrade digging. I think that would also make the income FAVs a little more popular.

Build a TE for an income FAV (most likely FAV7) and upgrade digging once would likely be the opening moves for most of the factions if these were all removed.
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Robert
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
If we eliminate ACT5, ACT6, and BON1 from the game and not give spades as cult rewards, then you really would not have too much choice but to upgrade digging.
I expect that if one was to make new round scoring tiles, and only two (or even less) would give spades as a round bonus, then the probability of games which have no spade bonus at all would increase significantly, which in turn strongly increases the value of ACT5/6, especially if the game does not have BON1.

Yet in such a setup (no spade bonus, no BON1), I doubt that people would continue to play "normal" factions and just advance digging more often, but they'd rather flock to factions with cheap/alternate terraforming (D, G, N, Volcano, Rw) or cheap dig advancement (H, Ice) or extra spade benefits (A).
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Hubert
Singapore
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https://terra.snellman.net/game/4pLeague_S30_D3L3_G7

R6 Turn 1- The halflings player shouldn't be able to 'convert 3pw to 3c' between upgrade to TE & town selection right ? Or is this just a limitation on Juho's implementation ?
 
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Steve Haas
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It is officially against the rules but not prevented by the snellman interface so... I think it sort of gets treated as implicitly allowed.
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ScottyMcSock
Germany
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Why did cultists not receive a power in
https://terra.snellman.net/game/4pLeague_S30_D2L1_G2/max-row... ?

They build a Te on E10 next to engineers, and engineers declined the 6pw, not being able to take them anyway. In my understanding of the rules that should grant cultists 1pw gain, but nothing happened.
 
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Robert
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humbawa wrote:
They build a Te on E10 next to engineers, and engineers declined the 6pw, not being able to take them anyway.
I marked the relevant part. Declining of leech only gives the Cultists 1pw if there's actually some declining. It's a snellman speciality (caused by the possibility to delay leeching) that players get even asked to leech/decline if they are full on power, so in a FtF game, the Engineers wouldn't even be asked for a decision (and the snellman moderator could also remove the decision if it's it's clear that there are 0pw to gain).
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ScottyMcSock
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DocCool wrote:
humbawa wrote:
They build a Te on E10 next to engineers, and engineers declined the 6pw, not being able to take them anyway.
I marked the relevant part. Declining of leech only gives the Cultists 1pw if there's actually some declining. It's a snellman speciality (caused by the possibility to delay leeching) that players get even asked to leech/decline if they are full on power, so in a FtF game, the Engineers wouldn't even be asked for a decision (and the snellman moderator could also remove the decision if it's it's clear that there are 0pw to gain).


Thanks, I wasn't aware of that - learn something new every day.

I assume, had engineers 'accepted' the leech, cultists would not have been able to climb a step in a cult, either - correct?
 
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Oedipussy Rex
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humbawa wrote:
DocCool wrote:
humbawa wrote:
They build a Te on E10 next to engineers, and engineers declined the 6pw, not being able to take them anyway.
I marked the relevant part. Declining of leech only gives the Cultists 1pw if there's actually some declining. It's a snellman speciality (caused by the possibility to delay leeching) that players get even asked to leech/decline if they are full on power, so in a FtF game, the Engineers wouldn't even be asked for a decision (and the snellman moderator could also remove the decision if it's it's clear that there are 0pw to gain).


Thanks, I wasn't aware of that - learn something new every day.

I assume, had engineers 'accepted' the leech, cultists would not have been able to climb a step in a cult, either - correct?


Correct.
 
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Dhrun
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I am not joining once more and I am on a business trip, but, nobody wants to advertise season 31?whistle
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Dhrun wrote:
I am not joining once more and I am on a business trip, but, nobody wants to advertise season 31?whistle


Done.
 
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